Art and Identity After October 7 — The Z3 Podcast
In Episode 2, Season 2 of the Z3 Podcast, artists Vanessa Hidary and Neshama Carlebach reflect on how their creative work and personal identities have been transformed in the wake of October 7. They share how their art has shifted toward activism, shaped by grief, urgency, and deep connection to their communities. The conversation explores the evolving role of Jewish artists, the contrasts between diaspora and Israeli experiences, and the ways art can offer healing in moments of rupture. Listen to these groundbreaking artists as they get deep and spiritual, making the case for art and activism as a genuine, necessary tool in building the world to come.
About Our Guests
Neshama Carlebach is an award-winning singer, songwriter and educator who has performed and taught in cities around the world. Neshama has sold over one million records, making her one of today’s best-selling Jewish artists in the world. As a teenager she performed alongside her father, the late Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach. Today she lives in New York with her husband Rabbi Menachem Creditor, and their five children, and has recently begun her studies to become a rabbi at the Academy for Jewish Religion.
Vanessa Hidary Internationally acclaimed Spoken Word Artist/Solo Performer/Author/ Actress/Writer/Director, grew up on Manhattan's culturally diverse Upper West Side. Her experiences as a Sephardic Jew with close friends from different ethnic and religious backgrounds inspired her to write "Culture Bandit" the nationally toured solo show that chronicles Vanessa's coming of age during the golden age of Hip-Hop.
Video Transcript
Amitai Fraiman
Hi and welcome to the Z3 podcast. I am Amitai Fraiman. I am the founding director of the Z3 podcast. I am very blessed and excited to have this conversation today with Vanessa and Neshama Carlebach, two amazing and acclaimed artists, each in their own field. Vanessa is a celebrated and award-winning spoken word artist and Neshama Carlebach is a talented musician, award-winning singer and songwriter and educator. And I've seen them both perform very inspiring, highly recommended.
And today I'm very much looking forward to the conversations. So thank you so much for joining us. It's a real pleasure and a real zhchut to have you on this podcast.
Vanessa Hidary
Thank you.
Neshama Carlebach
It's an honor to be with you both, truly.
Amitai Fraiman
Good, great. So we're going to jump right into it and we're going to I'm going to ask you some questions based on your work and what you're experiencing, especially in this post October 7 world that we're living through. It's been now almost 19 months. It's quite intense and we've seen all kinds of things, but your your perspective as artists and your experiences, I think are unique and most people I don't -- I mean, I'll speak for myself -- I don't have that that perspective, you know, I see it very much from a nonprofit area, I see from a consumer of news, but there's something unique about the space you're in and I'm very curious, of course, to hear your perspectives on this.
So we'll start, you know, we'll start with your craft, we'll build into it a little bit, but how, you know, we'll start with how do you feel that your work has been impacted and the creative element of it, we'll talk about the audiences in a minute, but even just the creative side of it, how you feel it's been impacted since October 7. And we'll start with Vanessa, then Neshama Carlebach, we'll change it around. But we'll be free forum, don't worry about it too much, but we'll start a little bit structured in that way. So Vanessa, if you want to maybe share with us how you feel this, your content has changed, your art has changed.
Vanessa Hidary
My content has definitely become more in the realm of activism, but mixed with emotion and heart, which my work has always done. Prior to October 7, I never mentioned Israel in any of my work.
I was very much following the rules for myself that I had set up that I was going to only talk about cultural, social, Jewish issues and antisemitism. So that's been a huge change since October 7. And on a personal note, I've had an explosion of creativity, which I did not expect from this, but I have been writing probably more this year than I have in the last 10 years.
Amitai Fraiman
Can you say a little bit more about the rules that you set up for yourself? I'm just curious, wanna pull in that thread a little bit.
Vanessa Hidary
I always felt as though I wasn't equipped to comment on Israel because I felt that it was a subject that I really needed to study and which I'll come to later, which has kind of changed my activism this year because I have been studying more. But I also very much knew that Israel was a piranha in the art scene and that I had a far more chance of reaching people and finding my way to them, even about antiSemitism, by avoiding Israel. And I managed to do it for about 20-something years, which is kind of amazing, except for maybe one or two moments where someone had screamed Free Palestine at me when I was performing nothing that had anything to do with that.
But I felt as though when October 7 happened, there was no longer that separation anymore. And I felt as though I had to talk about Israel and my quest to tackle antisemitism in my work became a lot more connected with what was going on in Israel.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you. Thank you. Neshama Carlebach, And for you, how have you felt that your art has been impacted since October 7th?
Neshama Carlebach
Thank you. Just Vanessa, so moved to hear your answer, because I'm such a big fan of your work and I'm so pleased to hear that your creative energy is flowing. And I pray that that continues way past this particular trauma. But you're amazing. It's not just that my art has changed. I have changed completely. I am not who I was before. The way I wake up in the morning, the way I look at the world, the way I look at my children. I have cried more since October 7 than I have my entire life. My desire to be of service, my desire to give back, my tribalism, my fierce protective instincts for my family, for my larger Jewish family, my grief, my horror.
My art has very much always been an expression of my deepest self. I always feel that when we, you know, it's an old Rab'nachman teaching when we sing, we pray twice. And I have always come from that place and whatever it is that I'm praying for, that I'm davening for, whatever it is, the sparks that I'm blessed to pick up from the universe as I'm singing, that has always been the way I work. I don't plan so much. I want to be, I...want to be of service and I want to be moved and give back appropriately. And since October 7th, I have been a bleeding soul. ⁓ Every single thing I do is for Israel. My heart is for Israel. I'm sort of, I see the world differently. I understand us. I understand our history in a way that I never did before. And most of all, what has shifted within my art and I could talk about my emotionality for a long time. I'm sure we all could, since October 7th. I have two sons who are exquisite. And I know all parents will say that about their children. My children are just exquisite beings. They're both musicians. My older son, who's now 18, is he literally, when I was pregnant, kicked me in time and I had people around me. So was like, I wrote a journal entry. said, I ate a metronome. That's what I said. Because I felt like I was on the road and I was recording and this being was like in time and he clapped in time when he was six months old and he's just that. And my younger son is, he's a prodigy in the greatest of like vast ways. He plays guitar, piano, bass, he sings, he's...
So they're young and I had done some Facebook live and I had brought them on stage and I didn't ever want to trot them out. I wanted them to be normal, unlike me, also another long conversation. But after October 7th, they have become my band. And we began to sing a few days after October 7th, and we were blessed to create, to be a part of creating events all across the states. We made a video together for Israel. We are recording together and we've written now five songs, all for Israel. We wrote a song for Hersh. We wrote it weeks before he was murdered. We wrote a song for Nova Survivors. And the fact that I've been able to connect with my children, L'dor v'dor, to bring the energy of what it means to be alive and Jewish. It has been such a grief-filled time, but this togetherness in my family has been, I must say, the greatest joy that I've had to be sort of in the time-space continuum.
And I know it's a long answer. I just really feel like maybe being alive and being Jewish is that. It's living every moment. It's being present. It's not giving up. It's crying while we laugh. It's existing. It's singing. It's praying. And it's our family. And yes, every single thing has changed since October 7.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you for that. both of you are sure, know, it didn't surprise me, but I knew that speaking to two artists is going to open up an emotional capacity that sometimes is void from slightly more, I'd say, cerebral conversations that happen in this setting. So I appreciate that very much. And I think it's incredibly important to be in tune with that and then kind of understand what happens in the internal realms of ourself as we're expressing them. And I want to pick up something that you both kind of mentioned, which is the, there is a level of blurring between oneself and their artistic expression. I think that's often, I mean, that's, that's what it's about, really, right, delivering an authentic self to an audience and through through art. And I think that, you know, I have a question around that is how do you how do feel about your responsibility almost. I mean, for you both described it because it was like a natural kind of move into another realm, I'd say, or another space or another expression of it. But I think that now with a little bit of hindsight, what is the sense of responsibility and the sense the need to defend your own sense of, you know, your Jewishness and and connection to Israel in this moment? And I'll let you know if it moves you to pick, you know, I could.
Vanessa Hidary
I'll start. Actually, one of the poems that I wrote a few months ago is called The Assignment. And that's very much how I can describe what happened to me on October 7th is many times I hear about Jews and people of other faiths who have a very religious moment of reckoning where something comes down and tells them they have to be more religious. Mine came in the form of an assignment to...use my gift for my people at this time. When I say for my people, I really mean everybody, but it's in the form of talking about my people from my point of view, from someone who's been steeped in diversity my whole life. I was hoping that I think when I first began, my mission felt, Like I have lived a very unique life and have access to so many different communities. So my thought was, well, hey, if Vanessa's saying it and people have trusted me and listened to my art thus far, then maybe my talking about Zionism, about Israel, about anti-Semitism, I can reach people that normally wouldn't listen to this message.
Now that didn't go exactly as I had planned. Maybe 3 % of what I, that I had imagined, which was very difficult, but that did not stop me from knowing that there was this very clear mission. And it came down to me. I remember it was a moment that came over my entire body. And I knew that my entire life was going to change because I knew if I spoke out, in the circles that I was in, there was no way there wasn't going to be a drastic change. And I do feel the responsibility. I feel a responsibility to the Jewish peoplehood, to my brothers and sisters in Israel who I feel like have sacrificed.
I think I was shocked to see that there were so many other Jews that possibly don't have this connection, and that's maybe for a further question or conversation, but I very much felt that, and I felt that and still do, irregardless of the politics of what is happening.
I very much feel that my mission is coming from where I am geographically and who I am as a person and an artist. And we all have our different strengths. And for me, I felt as though talking about anti-Semitism and not getting into the weeds of Israeli politics was probably a better place for me because that was where I felt.
I could reach people and I do, and this is one of the questions maybe we'll get into, but I feel like the experience for diaspora Jews has been very different than the experience for Israeli Jews. So I'm very much fighting this war and the aftermath as a diaspora Jew and take that responsibility seriously.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, you described this moment. mean, I want to turn to Nisham in a second. Maybe you'll need a minute to reflect on it. I mean, the moment itself is interesting. But I think there's also a, as a consumer of the social media, when you see different artists in different disciplines who choose or don't choose to speak out. And in my estimation, best case, don't say anything. In worst case, of try to make a point on the expense of the community. Of course, I'm very judgmental, but I don't put myself out there in the same level. So I don't feel that level of risk or kind of what's worth looking for.
that vulnerability that artists have to or often experience. And so like that moment of that choice, yes, it's a responsibility, it's an assignment, but it could also have been, know, in Yona tried to escape his assignment, he didn't ultimately succeed. But there are many others who are not recorded and they did succeed. And if it's Esther who was wavering and and and you know, got that push and she doubled down and did more than that. But I think it's worthwhile exploring that, I want to hear Neshama Carlebach for a second and we'll come back to this question as well.
Neshama Carlebach
It's such a, this is it. This is the conversation right here. What are we called to do? I love that you call it the assignment. It's absolutely right. That is so like, I just had chills when you said that. I feel very called and I also feel some days very passionate and hopeful. And some days I feel squashed beneath the wheels. You know, I have a very deep emotional up and down around anti-Semitism. I have a lot of fear. I don't understand how anyone does not look at a human being with love and respect. I don't get it. You can not like choices. You can not agree with politics. But I don't understand the degree with which people approach violence and justify it. I don't understand. I just, I don't get it. I don't get it. And it rips me up.
It shreds me from the inside out. And I know that I am called to be a part of the community louder. And some days I feel like I'm doing it well and some days I think I fear I fail being squashed. And I think that's a work in progress, you know, to try to figure out you're right, how to be more active, more vulnerable, more present. And we need each other, you know? Like I'm sitting here listening to you, Vanessa, I feel like so many of us who are artists and Jews, who are frightened, who don't know what the reaction will be, you know, we need each other more than I think I realized until this very second when you were talking. Like just you encourage me. You your words lift me. And that's why we need each other. We need to be louder together and fight harder together because there is no other way, truly.
Amitai Fraiman
So I do want to ask the two of you if you can reflect, Neshama Carlebach says you need each other. You talked about your family as well. what are, where do you think that inspiration or that willingness to take that leap, that jump into standing up and saying, what's very, very interesting about the work of both of you is that you both have a significant and consistent interaction with audiences way outside the Jewish community, right? There are Jewish artists who start within and then grow in popularity, popularity maybe, entirely external to, but the both of you actually are unique in that they, that you, you're like squarely planted in, in, in, within the Jewish community, but also very, very much so have audiences that are that are way beyond. you know, there's there's a choice. There's a real choice in America. And I I am very curious to hear about that, you know, that realization and the understanding that you need to make that, you know, to to live, you know, don't know what the right imagery is. not an English is it drawing a line in the sand or laying a stake or something about making a stance about the the. Yeah.
Vanessa Hidary
My therapist is still trying to figure that out
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah.
Vanessa Hidary
too. How did this happen? Because if anyone knows me, I've always been strong in my work and in my voice, but I'm also someone who has a great fear of not being liked and very sensitive. So to be in this place right now, if you had told me this like 10 years ago, it sounds like a horror show that I would be like coward in my room, feeling so judged and not liked and very scared of that. So part of me is not quite sure what happened because it's part of my personality, but it is also not because I've never, I've been speaking out in poetry and, but there's always been in the circle that I'm in a certain kind of cohesiveness of the message that everyone kind of agrees on the certain issues at hand. So I hadn't really done anything that was that controversial except I had been talking about being Jewish and anti-Semitism, but I did that in a way that was very digestible. And...
I, every time, and believe me, there are days where I wake up after getting an extremely hateful email, which at this point is pretty common. And these are from people I know, and they are, and the anger that comes with them is something very interesting, which we can talk about as well. But I do have a moment when that happens where I think, what have I done? My God, what have I done? What have I done? I made a rash decision. What have I done? What have I done? I spoke out. you know, everyone hates me. I have no legacy in the spoken word. Like I have a panic. And then very quickly, which again is not my, I wouldn't say that ⁓ rational and kind of not being an emotional person, like practicality is really one of my strengths, but somehow I start thinking, first of all, about the alternative. And when I think about not saying anything, not saying anything and being around people who are saying things that make me uncomfortable, even if they don't realize that they are uncomfortable, which... could add to the whole Zionist thing because honestly I feel as though my embracing the word Zionist has been probably more provocative than anything else I've said about Israel, about anti-Semitism. I think that I actually would have, not like I wanted to, but I would have gotten more of a pass if I didn't use that word. So it's very interesting to me. And when I think of that alternative, It's just not possible in my mind for me to see myself living in that. Could I have 20, 30 years ago? I don't know, maybe. I don't even think so back then, but I definitely feel like now there is no way. And it was other artists that inspired me. I sat watching, it took me a few months to really get my voice.
And even when I got my voice, was growing and it had stages of how I was letting things out. I didn't come out day one like, I'm a Zionist, you know, it took me a little bit of time to get to that place. And I was inspired by other artists, which I'm so grateful for that there were these voices there that were speaking to me. And then with that assignment on top of being inspired by these artists, there was just no way that I couldn't rise to the occasion and deal with the consequences. And like I said, there are still days that are very difficult. I'm you know, I'm a human being, I'm sensitive. No one likes to have people tell you that you have no heart and no empathy and you're a colonizer and a baby killer. I've had personal attacks about raising my daughter who's biracial and that has been extremely painful for me. Equating that with, you know, a criticism of Zionism, so a whole thing with that. So it has turned my life upside down, but in the same way, I really feel confident in my truth. And it doesn't mean that my message sometimes won't evolve. It doesn't mean that I sometimes have a good day with it or a bad day. But in general, I stand with my principles at the end of the day. And I don't think I've ever done that as strongly as a human being, as a woman, as a Jew, until this moment. And maybe it needed to happen to me in a kind of a thing.
To happen because it's, again, it's affected every area of my life because once you kind of are a little bit more okay with not being liked but being respected, which I do think that some people that even don't like me right now, I think that they respect me, even if they won't tell me that. And that has made a huge difference.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, that's a very apt kind of a distinction between being liked and being respected and how we kind of carry ourselves in the world in that sense. Neshama Carlebach, how have you experienced this and how you kind of the moment, because your audiences, mean, Vanessa's audiences, I'd say, and ⁓ this is broad strokes, right? Of course, correct me where I'm getting this wrong, but Vanessa, where you rose in the spoken word scene, I'd say, you know, the equity and the kind of diversity kind of oriented or facing. And Neshama Carlebach has, you your art is more, I'd say, rooted in a kind of like a soulful kind of element. And you've toured with and you've performed, you know, in venues where it's a much more, I'd say, a spiritual or more traditionally spiritual space. And that's a whole different ballpark. And I'm curious to hear about that interaction and thinking about your audiences in that that world as well.
Neshama Carlebach
Yes, thank you. It's true. I think people, when they bring me in, they know what they're bringing me in for. It is soulful. It is Jewish. I have been unapologetically Jewish from the moment I began my work. So in that sense, I almost envy you, this amazing like, I'm here. I love that. I feel like I've been doing that for too long.
I've been very uncomfortable. I have often been the only Jew in the room in a lot of interfaith work. But when I stand up and I say, greet you with love in the name of your Jewish brothers and sisters, I've always meant it. I don't ever leave my integrity behind. And that in that sense, it doesn't change. So I know, I know the people who come to hear me are wanting that they're wanting that, or hopefully.
They're wanting to have a spiritual experience which brings them closer to themselves and to others in the room. I stress and have always appreciated deeply the use of the nighun in my work, the wordless melody. So it's not about, it's almost like Vanessa, you and I are like opposite in that sense. Like your words are everything. And in my work, that just came to me right now. I, my words sometimes I feel in the song can sometimes separate people. So I, I yearn to let the words go and allow the melody to come and just melt within the spaces of our hearts so that we can all be speaking the same language. And so in, my work professionally, I, that hasn't changed. And I think I have been frequenting the places where people are looking for Jewish identity and healing and oneness. And so in my work, I have not faced that anti-Semitic reaction. Where I've had it is in my personal life. Where I've been cut off has been in my personal life. People who I thought were my friends. You know, the baby killing and the genocide. And that comes to me with people who've been in my home, people who I've welcomed, who I've eaten with, who I've hugged, who I've loved personally. Very painful, very shocking. It's like, wow, did you always hate me? It's just like, did it just come out now? And I haven't at all come to terms with it. I don't know what to do with it. I haven't known where to turn, where to lean. You I lean more on God, on my own heart. But yeah, incredibly shocking and painful. And we just got to fight harder, I think, in this time to not give in to the hatred, to not give in to the anger. I know those emails, I know those, the trolling, I know it. I get it from the outside, not from my workspace necessarily. We have to love harder.
Because this is the time where we could become that. We could become that. And I refuse to become a hater. I refuse to become someone who reacts with hatred and anger and violence. I will not. I want to still be someone who believes that the soul can rescue us, that each one of us in our essence is the same. That we are all coming from the same stuff. all, you know, we want the best for our children. Even if our parents are complicated, we still want the best for them. You know, we we want a good peaceful world, want a good pillow at night, we want a good coffee in the morning. You know, that's what we want. And I refuse to give up on that, even with all that we are facing. Yeah, it's big. These are big questions you're asking. These are big.
Amitai Fraiman
This is what we're here for.
Vanessa Hidary
I was just going to add quickly that, know, Nishama, when you brought up your children and how much that's had an impact as well, I realized that one of the driving forces that I didn't mention is that for the next generation. I don't want to say act like I'm 80 years old, but I feel like I've lived already a kind of... I've lived. I've had... a life, I still have a lot more life to live, but I have gone to concerts, I have traveled the world, I have done amazing things and for the most part, not felt incredibly threatened by being a Jew doing those things. So I have enjoyed the freedoms of what people before me have fought for. I have two nieces who are teenagers. My daughter is eight years old and I don't want them to grow up in a world and not have those, those privileges like I did. And for the most part, I feel like there are many people that feel I'm overreacting and hysterical. And I mean, not you guys, I'm saying just in general, when I have a lot of these conversations and I don't want my niece to go to a concert where it says F Israel on -- I think whether or not it's legal or political or social, whatever it is, whatever the reason is, I don't want that. I don't want them in colleges feeling that way. Again, I've had small moments of that in my life, but I have not had it in the way that I feel is brewing now, especially in schools and especially for experiences that will affect young people. mean, even now with art, every time I'm gonna go do something now, I'm Googling the artist or what it is, because I don't want to end up in a comedy show or a concert hall. This is my choice and other people could do it differently. I don't want to end up where there's a chant of like Free Palestine all night and all this anti-Zionist hatred and stuff. But I've had many years of going to many concerts doing what I've wanted to do. But the fact that these artistic worlds now are affected by this in pop culture, I feel very sad for young Jewish people who might feel trapped by that or ones that don't think that they're trapped by that, but don't feel very good about it, but don't really want to admit it or talk about it. And I have a sense that there's a large group of those people as well.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, certainly. Yeah, I resonate with that. The need, didn't, thought, I went to a comic, I thought it was safe and it ended up not being the best. And the truth is that I'm starting to like, this is maybe not, it's a little unfair, but I'm seeing more of this on social of comedians in particular that I respected are now leaning on like anti-Jewish humor. And I'm like, what a bunch of hacks, like really?
you're going to follow the crowd and just kind of like it's really sad like top like arena filling artists. I'm not talking about you know like the crowd working Instagram ones like the real you know but but that you know that there's a question there I think in terms of like what is the rule like what is the role like it's almost it's not really quite a statement but I do want to hear your version of it of course it's like the role of art and bringing people together you know what we saw in Coachella a couple weeks ago is you know it's like it's of course the hate but it's just like -- Really, that's what we're here for? That's the role of art. So I'm just like, I don't know, it's a big responsibility, this assignment, calling, but there is a role in there and how do you understand it in working with your audiences and bringing people together in a moment that we're so divided? And we can pause for a second to think about, not like, the bigger world, the olam, right? Talking about like even just the Jewish community, even internally there's so much division. And so if we for a second want to fix ourselves before fixing the world, how do you see your role as a Jewish artist or an artist that isn't, know, if call yourself a Jewish artist or not, an artist that brings their whole self that includes the Jewish identity, your role in bringing the community together in this moment.
Neshama Carlebach
I almost feel like talking about it doesn't help. I almost feel like the conversation, once you get into politics of any kind, for any country, we are done. We're done. I think having the conversation is our undoing. And I'm saying when people offer their opinions and fight back and forth, I think words of wisdom, know, Vanessa, you've never been more crucial to our world. That's like you.
You're saying what you have to say and they have no choice. They got to hear you. They have to. Even if they pretend they don't, they hear you. That discourse back and forth where, no, you did this. No, they did this. No, did, know, Netanyahu, you know, I feel like that is just, it's not the way. What we have to do is show the world a snapshot of positivity. We have to show the world who we are. We have to fight, fight our inner yetzer. We have to fight to not fall.
and get up again and fight harder the next day. ⁓ What you're saying about the young generations, it's tragic. What's happening in college, my son is about to go to college. I try not to think about it. I'm serious. I try to not because I'm up all night. It's just what happens. But last year, I had the privilege of taking my sons to the march of the living.
And nothing that I could have said or taught them or explained to them was the same as walking through the gas chambers of Auschwitz. Nothing, nothing. Any of you out there who have, you know, who've been or have not been, this is the time to go to Poland. I highly recommend the March of the Living. I've done work with them for, you know, decades. Watching my sons, I mean, I've been there like nine, 10 times. I'm not saying that.
I'm not immune at all, especially after October, walking through after October seven. It was full technicolor in a way that I can't even describe. And watching my children walk through, they got it. They got it. And it wasn't the argument. It wasn't they said, she said, no, this happened. This didn't happen. It's lived experience. It's life. Parents, whoever is listening, be honest with your children and show them the world.
Show them the truth. Take them to Nova. Take them to Israel. Let them see. Open their hearts. Open their eyes. Have patience for their process. That's the only way that we're going to show that we can actually show. have to lead by example. And again, more love. I don't always feel it. I've been taken down by people, again, people who I thought were my friends, who just happened to, I'm sure to both of you, people you're close with who suddenly flip around.
I'm gonna love them anyway, or at least give them the most that I can give them. I'm not gonna fall apart, I'm not gonna scream, I'm not gonna be defensive. I'm gonna be compassionate because clearly everyone's in some kind of pain.
And just try harder because we have so much love in this community. The Jews, we love more than any other. The way we do Shiva, the way we show up, we know how to show up. In Israel, I'm sure you've all had this experience. I was driving down the street, there was a car accident. In America, everyone kind of slows down and takes that weird like side eye look and then they keep going. Every car stops in Israel. Every car, every car you read accounts of people on October 7th who escaped, but then they went back to help others. They went back again. They went back seven, eight, nine, 20 times until they themselves succumbed. We don't give up. We are resilient and we love, and that is our legacy. And so, yes, all of those things aside, the world is, the world is burning, but we are not. We are not. And our art will lift us and our souls will help us.
And I just, I have to have that hope. I have to. I do.
Vanessa Hidary
Yeah, and I think that the hope is, you know, everyone, like I said, is different about what their expectations are for giving as what your expectations are as a Jewish artist. I know that there's some people, and like we've said, that maybe can't speak out as publicly as maybe all of us have in one way or another, but they can still give to the community in a way that's important. I've had people write me privately that say, I'm too scared or I'm not comfortable with speaking out about this, but I just want you to know how much you've given me and I admire it. can I offer you, have people offer me theater space, offer me things.
What I realize is that everyone has a different way of giving. And I try not to judge people in terms of that. I know you were mentioning a lot of performers who either don't speak out or then speak out negatively. And my feeling is, and I will say this, and it's just my opinion, I won't call out anyone personally.
I'm not the kind of person to go and try to cancel celebrities and call them out by name because now that I've been through the experience of being somewhat canceled, I have no interest in that. But I will say that I do feel disappointed in many Jewish celebrities or Jews in the art scene that I feel like have made much of their living and their personal fame on being Jewish, whether they consider that cultural Jewish or whatever, or playing some stereotype or whatever it is, and then have not spoken out at all. And when I say spoken out, it doesn't mean that I'm saying you have to agree with everyone's politics, but within that to not condemn the anti-Semitism, which is so clear, regardless of your politics, that that even exists and that that's happening. That to me does upset me. And I do feel like if you have a responsibility, if you are making your living and promoting these characters and these words and this culture, I do feel as though you should say something.
And it does bother me when certain people don't or they come out, you know, I'd almost rather them not say anything than come out negatively. But I know I can't control that and everyone has their different reasons. And I try not to judge everyone on that. And I also do say to people that if you are going to come out and speak, my advice would be that you have a support system.
And one of the reasons why I've been able to keep on doing this is because of the amazing community that has come back to me. And you know, everyone talks about social media being such an awful place. And for the most part, a lot of it is, but also what I've gotten back from people that I don't know who have written and just related to my pieces, given me that strength, I wouldn't have been able to go on doing it if I hadn't had that. And now I'm trying to make more of those connections in person and like human connections because I realized that I need to have physical community of seeing people that are accepting me for who I am right now.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, yeah, it's a I can't imagine ⁓ being in either of your shoes in that perspective. Just, you know, my work is so inwardly focused on our community. There's a lot of issues there, but I don't I don't need to face that. And so I really do admire your work and the stance that you take. And it's not easy. It really, really is very, very difficult. I to want to shift a little bit and ask, you know, from a we're recording this when you're both in the New York area. I am not. And I spend time there, but raised in Israel. there's a, there is a, you know, there's always had, there always has been a difference.
But in this moment, I think it's just, you know, it's different, different types of differences. But between the experience of Diaspora Jewry and what's happening in Israel, of course, there's the, you know, it's a different type of, you know, there's different, it's-- I'm not gonna put in a hierarchy, but it's a different area or a different type of intensity and struggle. And I'm curious, your experience of seeing those two things in both sides of the conversation, how it shifted for you or shifted in general when it comes to that relationship and the distinction between the two centers, I'd say.
Neshama Carlebach
I think it's really been a mind-blowing experience for me to hear reflected from Israelis that they didn't know we were here, that they didn't realize that we cared, that they didn't know that we loved them so much, you guys too. And I, they cry. They're like, well, you really, you actually care. And I, it makes me reflect on my own personal life. Like I didn't live through the Shoah, you know, it wasn't my time, but I lived through 9-11 in New York and I smelled that for weeks, months. We walked down the street after 9-11 and people had space for each other in their eyes. People looked at each other. It's like we had a shared trauma and we looked at each other and there was, I wasn't frightened of people, you know, I was like.
As a woman, I've kind of lived, you you know I'm saying? Like after a certain time of night, really look people in eye just in case. After 9-11, there was a little brief period where I felt protected by my people, my strangers on the street. And sometimes when I meet Israelis, not like, oh, you're American, you know, whatever. There's like, there has been a different relationship. And when I meet Israelis now, when I meet survivors now, I cry, and we embrace and there is a meeting of the heart that I don't think was there before between Israeli and diasporic Jews, I think. Do you have that experience, Vanessa? It's a different thing.
Vanessa Hidary
I mean, I feel as though I had a similar experience and I went to Israel last June. And I also felt as though that there were many Israeli Jews that were shocked at the that there were so many diaspora Jews with the passion and the energy and the the mourning of this situation like they were. And that made me sad. And it made me kind of question in some ways what my relationship had been with Israel. And I say in one of my pieces, like, I'm sorry to be the American that just calls in emergencies. Because a lot of times I would just text my friends when like something would happen, like, hey, are you okay? Like there was a bombing at a cafe or, you know, and it made me realize that I don't want that relationship like that anymore. I don't want to just be on this emergency thing and a taking for granted that I always felt that this amazing country was going to be there for me and I could go visit in the summer and then come back and I, you know, it's like I understood the depth of it, but this made me understand the sacrifice and the fight for it. And I have to say the place that when I went to Israel, it was the first time that I had been since I'd become a mother. So I had gone through many stages of going to Israel from when I was 15.
To wanting to thinking all like the soldiers were hot and wanting to date them to now going and them being, they could be my children. I'm old enough to be their mother. And so to be there and experience Israel through all of these stages in my life, going as a mother, the place where I...
broke down the most, I thought it was gonna be at when I went to, I went to Kfar Aza, the kibbutz, and of course everything was sad, everything was whatever, but where I fell apart was when I went to the military cemetery. And for me, I believe it was a realization that I'm not sacrificing my children for to, you for Jewish survival. I'm fighting for it, but it's very, very different. And I had this, it was just something that came over me that I felt as though because I'd become a mother, it hit me in a different way, like they say. so, and I also feel as though, like I said before, the experience of what Americans are, diaspora Jews are experiencing is incredibly different from what I feel day-to-day life is for Israelis. And I think it's important for us to have more connection and conversation. And there have been a few people that I connected with that summer that I talked to them and tell them about, a lot of them are watching the social media, they're seeing the protests, they see what's going on, but I try to give them an idea of...
really what it is like to live in a country of non-Jews experiencing this war. Of course their experiences is incredibly different. I've always said that, you know, when they're out there doing protests and stuff, they're not usually going to have someone next to them that's going to scream out, you know, go back to Poland.
But here as diaspora Jews, that's what we're kind of fighting. And sometimes that does make me very protective of Israel in a way that's not always logical, but I feel as though we are in such a tough place right now as diaspora Jews mentally. We don't have the same physical danger.
but mentally where we are right now is so dangerous. I don't know whether you guys saw the October 8th documentary. Have you seen it? And it was amazing.
Neshama Carlebach
Genius. Genius.
Vanessa Hidary
And for me, that solidified going through the entire year of that. What I really enjoyed about it too is that it didn't focus so much on October 7th. I mean, that was what did it, but the focus was what happened on October 8th and what happened in the West that is terrifying and has changed people. That to me was the war that we're fighting, is journalism, social media, just in general, the hatred of the West and all of these things. So I feel as though it's really almost more important for Israelis and diaspora Jews to have more conversation. And I've been trying to kind of be more a part of that.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, Yeah, I mean, that rings very true. I, know, part of me wishes, you know, I, I think the fact that Israelis aren't always aware of what's going on here, right? Mean, there's a surprise that we care, that's fine, but the second level of awareness, I mean, we're entirely, for those of us who are bought in and are invested in, we know what's going on in Israel. you know, people from getting the alerts about the rockets and waking up at 2 a.m. to, you know, all the right, and like the news push, like we're just like,
Neshama Carlebach
All done. All done.
Amitai Fraiman
I call, you for me, I experienced it as like an emotional jet lag because everything that's happening, you know, like my day isn't in sync with where my literally where my thoughts and my emotions are most of the time. But I wish that there was a kind of a recognition of also the in the other way, not because of, you know, I think that mostly because of the need for mutuality in this relationship for it to like in any relationship. I think there's there's an as as Vanessa, you were talking about the way you said it and Neshama Carlebach you as well.
of like clicked with something, I can't escape my rabbinic hat, but you know we always talk about the two threats to the Jewish continuity, right? There's the physical one and there's a spiritual one and we always say the spiritual one is actually more dangerous, right? Because it's the threat of ending the line both in this world and the world to come, right? And so I, you know, while yes of course, know, Israel is at war and there's no way to put that in any kind of equation or box.
But there's something very, I think, scary here that maybe they do or don't really fully appreciate is that threat to our spiritual well-being. I think it's very, as we're winding down towards the end of this episode, do want to, the question I want to kind of work towards the end of this is talking about that spiritual dimension as your work as activism, as a spiritual kind of engagement, and how does that, how do you make sure that that's transmitted to the audiences and saying like this is not like just cultural Judaism but it's much more than that.
Neshama Carlebach
So I don't know if you knew, I think I put it in my bio, but I've started rabbinical school. I started last August. So I've now, I now begin, what?
Amitai Fraiman
It's about time, we've all been waiting.
We've all been waiting.
Amitai Fraiman
We knew, we needed you to know.
Vanessa Hidary
Yeah.
Neshama Carlebach
Thank you. I didn't. I always wanted to be a rabbi my whole life. my father, I speak about this often, my father came from 25 generations of rabbis and my father only had daughters. And over and over again, people would say, okay, it's dead now. have a lot of mine. You only had daughters too bad. It's dead now.
You know, and I gave in. And when you talk about the spiritual, you know, the threat to the spirit, I think being disconnected from your mission in this world, that is your spiritual undoing. You know, your integrity, your strength comes from knowing who you are in this world, period. And I struggled for a very long time. I think I still do. But when it comes to my desire to be present for my people, my desire to bring comfort and healing and depth and companionship, honestly, friendship, familyhood. My starting to learn Torah is what did that for me. And I highly wanna recommend it to all the Jews out there, you know, on any level, learning pshat in the Torah, just looking at the words, looking at the basic translation of our story.
Of our ancestors, of all of it, all of the complicated family dynamics and down, you know. I see so much. I feel so much. We are on this long continuum, started at the beginning of time. And God struggles with us. And we fall and God falls. And I've been saying all along, God is, I don't know where God is, but I see us. I see us. And so my connection to my people, my great passion now for very grounded learning. My husband, who's my Rabbi first, Rabbi Menachem Creditor, he said to me, you know how to fly and now you need to learn how to walk. It's like I can drosh with the best of them, but reading like Gemara, like to the letter, that was a challenge for me. And one that I've taken on with great joy. Because if I can give that kind of grounding to my audience. iIf that can be a part of my message, of my assignment, of my artistry. know, that's what else can we do? You we can't expect to change the world. We can only try our best to be who we are and hope that that makes a difference. And I used to think that I wanna learn everything so I can fight about it. You know, like this isn't cool. And of course this is misogynist. And of course, like that's what I was walking in.
You know, and I cry over every word and I'm no longer judging my forefathers and mothers. You know, I'm crying with them because we're all broken, all of us, and we have been from the beginning of time. And maybe that's the test. Maybe that's the test. How do we, how do we find our path, our way from where we've come and to where we are going? And just as much as we can, one by one, giving, giving people that we encounter something of worth, something of meaning that they can walk away with and feel human and feel like maybe they can find their own humanity because they had just something that was sweet, just one little taste of something sweet. I think that's all we can hope for. And if we can hold that, I think, if we can hold that assignment, maybe we'll do a little bit better than we did yesterday.
Vanessa Hidary
I think that this is probably one of those causes or missions or assignments that I've taken on that is a long run game. Like this is going to be, I think I've wanted results very quickly from everything. And to be honest with you, for example, when people say, well, you're gonna go to the poetry scene and perform this and perform that and bring people together. I'm gonna be honest with you that I don't think that the time right now is for, I don't think people are ready to have certain conversations yet, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to give up on that. I can't give up on that. I'm raising a daughter who is black, Dominican, Jewish, Ashkenazi, Miss Rocky, and want her to be proud of all of that. And so it has been very difficult that, probably the most difficult part of this whole thing has been the separation from all of these communities that I have fought alongside, which I'm so proud of and will continue to.
But that separation from that world, from the LGBT community, from the Black community, from some of the Latino community, and again, I'm generalizing, there are people within that who have been incredible allies to me. But that has been incredibly painful, and I don't see a way out yet. And that's very frustrating for me because I like to have answers, and I'm like a planner, and I like to see progress.
I haven't. And I don't know when and how it will happen, but I just feel like I will find out through the doing and through keeping writing and representing and having this voice. And it might take forever. Maybe it will never fully happen. But I also feel like as a Jew, people can look at like Tikkun Olam or something in very different ways. And I was listening to a reform rabbi talk about losing a lot of the reform Jews because many of them felt like it was more important to fight for other causes, for other communities than for our own. And one thing that I will say is that I always feel as though what has made me the best ally has been loving who I am first. And that was why I was also incredibly accepted because when I went to the spoken word scene, I got up there and I was like, I'm proud of who I am.
I'm not trying to be something I'm not. I'm proud of who I am and I love you and respect you. And I want all of that together. Now this was just a continuation to like how someone is gonna then extend that, that, you know, that fight. And for me, I know that for me to be the best ally I can to every community, I have to have the utmost pride and respect and not a hypocrite. I always say that these other communities are the ones who taught me the most about everything I'm doing right now is from other communities that have taught me, no, that's unacceptable. And now I'm applying it towards us. And I think it's uncomfortable for some people because it's seen as some kind of victimhood. And all I'm asking for is for there not to be this hypocrisy.
And that's how I feel like I can be the best Jew and artist in person, but I think it's gonna take a long time.
Neshama Carlebach
It will take forever, even longer than that. And you're absolutely right. We cannot give up.
We have no right to give up.
Amitai Fraiman
No, no. It's not ours to complete, but we have no right to deceased from it.
Vanessa Hidary
Right.
Neshama Carlebach
There you go.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you, Neshama. Really, I mean, for me, I'm recording this in middle of a work day. It's a huge blessing and a gift to be able to kind of put everything on the side and go in this conversation and this journey and tap into a frequency of an emotional death, a spiritual death, an artistic expression of who we are. And the work that you're doing is incredibly remarkable and inspiring. So thank you both for joining me in this conversation and for giving your time and, of course, for everything that you're doing for our people. And for our family and for the world. It's really, really crucial and needed. So, toda. Toda, toda.
Neshama Carlebach
Thank you. So lovely to be with you both.
Vanessa Hidary
Thank you.
