Book Event—“Ghosts of a Holy War” with Yardena Schwartz
What does a nearly century-old massacre in Hebron have to do with the conflicts roiling the Middle East today?
At this event hosted at the Menachem Begin Heritage Center in Jerusalem on May 28, 2025, journalist and author Yardena Schwartz joins Z3’s David Hazony for an urgent conversation about her new book, Ghosts of a Holy War. Drawing on years of reporting and deep historical research, Schwartz explores the origins of Arab anti-Jewish violence and how unresolved history continues to haunt the present.
Video Transcript
Paul Gross (00:00)
We'll start. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. ⁓ That is good evening for those here at the Begin Center in Jerusalem and anyone watching ⁓ here in Israel or in Europe. And good afternoon to those watching in the United States on Zoom. My name is Paul Gross. I'm a senior fellow here at the Menachem Begin Heritage Center. It's my great pleasure to welcome you to another of our English events. Those of you who are regulars will know that we have regular
events both in person and on Zoom in which we discuss ⁓ contemporary issues in Israel and the wider Jewish world and also historical ⁓ issues, especially when there have been great books written about them. Today, we're going to be discussing certainly a, or hearing about a historical event, but also one that is of, I think, relevance for us now.
I had cause to go over some old books about pre-state Israel, pre-state the Yishuv for a course that I'm doing, a course that I'm teaching next month. And I was reminded that if you study the pre-state era, there are these events which are pivotal to the developing Zionist story, right? So.
Herzl writes the Judenstädt, the Balfour Declaration, other things like that. And there are events which capture the mood of the moment. So for example, if you read the submissions of the various Zionist leaders to the British Peel Commission. And there are events which we can see as in some way foreshadowing events that take place in the future state of Israel. So there are many examples. But you look at the very finely charged
ideological battles between the labor Zionists and the revisionists. And what this new book, Yodanah Schwartz's book, makes clear, I think, is that Hebron in 1929 did all three of these things. It was a pivotal moment in the story and the development of what was going on here in Eretz Israel. It did capture the mood of what was happening at the time. And
of especially since October 7th, it can be seen as a kind of prequel to later events. So it's not just a work of history. It provides context today. There's that wonderful quote that we have here on the flyer from Yossi Klein Halevi. If you're going to read one book to help you understand the current Middle East tragedy, this is it. And in a way, it's somewhat counterintuitive that a book about something that happened nearly 100 years ago would be
that book, but I think we're here today exactly why that is. So we're really delighted that we've been able to provide the venue for Yardena to talk about the book on this visit of hers to Israel from her home in New York. We're also delighted to welcome back a friend of the Begin Center and a personal friend, David Hazony to talk about it with her. So I'm going to read out very short introductions to our two guests, and then I'll let them take it from here, and there'll be time for questions.
afterwards and for those of you in the room with us, there will be books on sale after the event. So Yardena Schwartz is an award-winning journalist and an Emmy nominated producer who was based in Israel for a decade until 2023. Her reporting has appeared in dozens of publications, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, New York Review of Books, The Economist, Time, National Geographic and Foreign Policy. She previously worked at NBC News and MSNBC. She graduated with honors from Columbia Journalism School.
receives an Emmy nomination for her work at MSNBC in 2013 and the RNA Award for Excellence in Magazine Reporting in 2016. And this book, Ghost of a Holy War, is her first of many, we hope. And speaking to her this evening will be David Hazony an award-winning editor, translator, and author, and director, and Steinhardt Senior Fellow at the Z3 Institute.
His newest work, Young Zionist Voices, A New Generation Speaks Out, which we also launched here, brings together the next generation of impassioned Jewish leaders and his 2023 collection, Jewish Priorities, 65 Proposals for the Future of Our People, brings together a remarkable array of new essays from across the Jewish world. He's a former editor-in-chief of Azure and the founding editor of the Tower.org. His book, The Ten Commandments, was a finalist for the National Jewish Book Award and his translation of Uri Bar-Joseph's the Angel was a winner.
the National Jewish Book Award. David Hazony Yardena Schwartz Thank you very much.
David Hazony (05:06)
Thank you so much, Paul. Welcome to everyone who came in person and to everyone out there ⁓ on Zoom. ⁓ It's really exciting to present the latest installment of what at Z3 we call the Jerusalem Series. ⁓ The ⁓ Z3 project was... ⁓
launched first as an annual conference based in the, and it's a project of the Oshman family JCC in Palo Alto, California. The conference has now had its 10th year going into its 11th. It's a really powerful, I would say premier gathering on the subject of Zionism, US diaspora relations, and the future of the Jewish people, especially after October 7th.
In recent years, the Z3 project has added two additional divisions. One is a vast, broad network of Jewish professionals in North America who come for a second day of the conference and learn a lot about what we're doing and about Zionism and about how to bring it back into their communities. This is especially JCC's, youth movements and others. And in addition, we've launched an institute that I'm directing called the Z3 Institute.
⁓ There the goal is really to identify scholars, authors, writers who have something genuinely new to say for Jewish life in the wake of October 7th. It was launched last year. We have already published ⁓ two books, Young Zionist Voices, which I edited and which we did a great event for here. Plus, Nolan Leibovitz is the case for Dual Loyalty, a book with a
provocative title and an even more interesting and provocative argument that I strongly recommend. ⁓ We're thrilled to have a series in Jerusalem and to partner with Paul and the Begin Center, which was really a natural fit, not just because we go to the same shul, ⁓ but also because ⁓ the Begin Center, too, is really interested in investing in important conversations about our collective future.
And so I'm really, really excited to be here. And I'm especially excited to be here with Yardena Schwartz, who I actually have known for quite a few years now. Yardena.
Speaker 5 (07:34)
David.
David Hazony (07:34)
How is your book being received?
Yardena Schwartz (07:38)
had some.
Yardena Schwartz (07:39)
Time to
think about this, because you told me you were going ask me. So I three stories I'd like to tell. You said I could. This would be a conversation. So tell a few stories. To answer that question, one is that.
Yardena Schwartz (07:45)
and I can ramble.
that
Speaker 5 (07:52)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (07:53)
because I worked for
Yardena Schwartz (07:55)
so many non-Jewish publications and news organizations. I didn't think that my book would be a shoe-in for Times Book, which is almost impossible to get. But I thought that there would be some kind of coverage of my book in at least one of the publications I've written for news organizations I've worked for. a sign of the Times and a sign of the news profession that my book has not been covered by any.
Speaker 5 (07:57)
You
I
Yardena Schwartz (08:04)
you know, for a tiny book review.
Speaker 5 (08:04)
New York.
you
Yardena Schwartz (08:16)
I think it's a
Yardena Schwartz (08:23)
of those publications I worked for by any of the news organizations I've worked with over the course of the last two decades, because I was also working on this before. The only one that did cover it that wasn't a Jewish publication was the Wall Street Journal. So I'm very grateful for that, of course, for ⁓ a book review on the Wall Street Journal. I'm super grateful for that. But it is disappointing that it's been just in.
Yardena Schwartz (08:31)
looking at this journal before I move to Israel.
completely ignored
Speaker 5 (08:48)
you know, in ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (08:49)
the liberal media sphere.
Yardena Schwartz (08:52)
the Jewish press
and in Jewish communities that I've gotten to speak to over the last six months since the book came out. The reception has just been incredible. I've been blown away. The best compliments I've gotten that I actually hear from a lot of readers is that they appreciate that it's a book that is
Yardena Schwartz (08:55)
Jewish
him.
One of the.
a book about history and it's
a heavy material, yet it reads like a page turner.
Speaker 5 (09:15)
.
Yardena Schwartz (09:17)
like a novel,
and that was something that I was striving for.
Yardena Schwartz (09:20)
So sorry. I'm a writer, not a speaker. Yeah. OK. Sorry. ⁓ So those are two.
David Hazony (09:22)
Thank
Speaker 5 (09:28)
you
Yardena Schwartz (09:29)
So two
stories, and then another one, the criticism that I get from the one criticism I get.
Yardena Schwartz (09:37)
Jewish readers,
the ones who the whole book and they love it and then they say they're turned off by the...
Speaker 5 (09:40)
⁓
the ending.
Yardena Schwartz (09:45)
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:48)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (09:48)
Criticism or
I don't see it as criticism. I think it's just you know journalism
Yardena Schwartz (09:53)
telling the facts as they were in terms of covering the protests and the unrest that proceeded October 7th, the protests against the judicial and all of the warning signs that were ignored by the Israeli government. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (10:04)
Overhaul.
That's been
kind of the one criticism I've gotten from,
Yardena Schwartz (10:11)
Jewish
readers.
David Hazony (10:14)
Well, the publishing thing that you described, you're not the only one going through it, right? Yes, of course. on the one hand, I mean, there two different phenomena happening. One is that overall, book reviews are way, way down. Newspapers have cut their sections down. Others have completely cut them out. And the book buying market has gotten smaller as people become increasingly distracted by cat videos.
Really. But in addition, I think there has certainly been a certain canceling, especially of anything that feels like a Zionist argument. And I know this through my work with different publishers, that it's very difficult, even for excellent, excellent books with significant commercial viability, very, very difficult to get covered, get reviewed. And I'm sure that.
like Yossi Klein Halevy and other great Jewish writers have encountered that, which is one of the reasons that I've gotten involved in the Z3 Institute and Wicked Son Publishing and other, know, what ends up happening to Jews when they are boxed out is that they just create their own institutions. And so you have all these Beth Israel hospitals in America and...
and so forth from a time when Jews were boxed out. And it feels like it's starting in certain circles to move in that direction again. So you're 100 % right. That is to say, the people who praised your book about the writing are 100 % right. I found it to be delightful to read. I mean, there's horrible things in there. So maybe that's the wrong word. But it was.
Not just readable, it was really literary, and it was really gripping. I want to read a specific paragraph, because I think it kind of encapsulates the thesis of your book, ⁓ which is, towards the end, you write. And this is the sort of summary section of the book. The seeds of the war in Gaza, the current war, were planted in 1929.
And while nearly everything has changed since, the forces behind the holy war that began that year have not. The lessons in the echoes of 1929 are a guide not only to how we could prevent another massacre, but forge a path forward for the millions of Israelis and Palestinians who wish to live in peace in the homeland. So long as Palestinian leaders refuse to accept the right of a Jewish state to exist and continue their detrimental history,
of incitement and disinformation. The endless cycle of carnage will continue. If protesters and world leaders truly wish for peace, their focus should be on ending this century of armed resistance, which has only bred more extremists and more sufferings on both sides. Tell me if this is a good encapsulation of the book, and maybe for the benefit of those who haven't read it. What is your book about? How do you make this case?
Yardena Schwartz (13:43)
of it and I'll say that I started writing my book four years before October 7th. My book was going to be about and still is about this century-old massacre that really explains so much of the reality we see today in Israel ⁓ in the wider Arab-Israeli conflict but it just became more relevant than
Speaker 5 (13:49)
⁓
and. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (14:10)
I ever imagined or hoped it would be after October 7th. And now the book isn't just about the massacre and its reverberations, but really those chilling, haunting echoes that were so deafening on October 7th and even after in terms of the disinformation, which sadly when I was writing my book, that disinformation in my mind and I think many of our minds was really limited to this region.
Yardena Schwartz (14:17)
patients.
Talk, I will.
Speaker 5 (14:34)
I'm sorry.
Yardena Schwartz (14:39)
And now we see that pain and incitement is now just throughout the West, ⁓ supposedly intelligent intellectual circles. And so the book is about how that same disinformation and incitement, how it began, and it led to one of the worst pogroms ever perpetrated on Jews outside of Europe. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (14:40)
disinformation campaign.
through.
Yardena Schwartz (15:09)
which occurred in Hebron in 1929 as part of the riots that gripped all of British Mandate Palestine in August 1929. How that massacre really reshaped the region, transformed Zionism, transformed the Old Yishuv. Really in motion, so many of the forces that drive the conflict today, including weaponization of Islam,
Speaker 5 (15:13)
⁓
and how
⁓
⁓ set.
The.
Yardena Schwartz (15:39)
And Al-Aqsa, the disinformation around Al-Aqsa that galvanizes so much violence here. Probably don't need to remind you that October 7th was named the Al-Aqsa flood. The disinformation about Al-Aqsa that also fueled the Second Intifada, also known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada, that began in 1928 as a result of the disinformation campaign that led directly to the massacre of 1928.
Speaker 5 (15:45)
you
Huh.
29.
David Hazony (16:07)
It's Al-Aqsa being the Arabic term for the Temple Mount. It refers to their claims that the Jews were, back then they claimed it, now they claim it, that the Jews are going to take over the Temple Mount and destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Maybe for the benefit of people who aren't familiar with this episode, talk a little bit about what, you know, break down what exactly happened. What was this massacre? How did it start?
and what was the outcome?
Yardena Schwartz (16:38)
So.
Yardena Schwartz (16:39)
In 1928,
Yom Kippur of 1920, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini the most powerful Muslim leader in Palestine, started to spread a rumor that the Jews of Palestine were plotting to destroy Al-Aqsa Mosque to rebuild their ancient temple. This is when that rumor began. It still continues today, despite the fact that if Israel really did want to destroy Al-Aqsa, it could have done that. Nevertheless, ⁓ this rumor
Speaker 5 (16:56)
and
Long, long,
Yardena Schwartz (17:10)
that began in fueled so many attacks on Jews in Jerusalem. It was also accompanied by an effort by not just the Grand Mufti, but other ⁓ Muslim leaders in Jerusalem to limit Jewish access to the Western Wall. ⁓ The claim was that the Western Wall would be the Jews' first step in conquering Al-Aqsa, the Temple. And so over the course of a year with this disinformation, incitement, and limiting of Jewish ⁓ access to the Western Wall,
Speaker 5 (17:15)
The
Yardena Schwartz (17:40)
On Tisha
B'Av in 1929, there was a demonstration by Jews to the Western Wall, marching in protest against the British failure to protect Jewish worshipers from increasing Muslim attacks at the Western Wall and their failure to dispel these lies about this supposed Jewish plot. And this demonstration
Speaker 5 (17:44)
young.
and
Yardena Schwartz (18:05)
It was entirely peaceful. It was provocative. ⁓ They were chanting, the wall is ours. They were carrying a flag with the Star of David, chanting, singing the Hatikva, what would become 20 years later the national anthem. What it did was, despite it being peaceful, it led Arab leaders and the Grand Mufti to claim that this was proof that the Jews actually were planning to take over Al-Aqsa. They claimed in the Arabic press that these
Speaker 5 (18:19)
and
Yardena Schwartz (18:35)
peaceful protesters had raped Muslim women, had attacked Muslim men, cursed the prophet Muhammad. And from that day on, from Tisha B'Av until the massacre in Kavron, there were attacks by Arabs against Jews, counterattacks by Jews against Arabs. And then it all came to a head on August 23, 1929.
Yardena Schwartz (18:47)
Jerusalem.
Speaker 5 (18:55)
when Arabs are
Yardena Schwartz (18:57)
Worshippers at al-Aqsa were told by their leaders to come armed that day to Friday prayers and during Friday prayers at al-Aqsa they were told by Imams to defend Islam and al-Aqsa with their blood and thousands of armed worshipers that day began to attack Jews in the Old City set fire to Jewish businesses and
Speaker 5 (19:17)
⁓
from.
Yardena Schwartz (19:21)
that point in the old city of Jerusalem on August 23rd, 1929, the riots just spread like wildfire throughout Palestine, reaching nearly every Jewish community. When the riots reached Hebron, the Jews of Hebron had been, Hebron was known as one of the safest places to be a Jew in Palestine. It was a beacon of coexistence in Palestine, which is pretty hard to imagine today, given what Hebron
Speaker 5 (19:30)
And. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (19:49)
is now, but at the time, Jews and Muslims had coexisted in relative peace and harmony for centuries. Jews and Muslims owned businesses together. Many of the Jews in Hebron then were renting their homes from Arab landlords. They would attend each other's holidays and weddings and celebrations. The relations were so warm between the Jewish minority of Hebron and the Arab majority that when the Haganah
Speaker 5 (20:08)
and
Yardena Schwartz (20:11)
So.
Yardena Schwartz (20:18)
came to Hebron days before the riots erupted warning the Jewish leaders of Hebron that a riot was going to erupt. It was going to reach Hebron. They wanted to either stay, they wanted to have ⁓ armed Hagana men stay in Hebron to protect the Jews of Hebron because many of, none of them were Hagana members in Hebron. This was a very traditional, very religious, all pious Jewish community. ⁓
Speaker 5 (20:34)
and
small
Yardena Schwartz (20:47)
They were not Zionists and they rejected the Haganah's offers of protection. They told them to leave. They said, our Arab neighbors are friends. They'll never hurt us. In previous years when there had been violence in other parts of Palestine, the violence had never reached them because of these really remarkable relationships. And sadly, they were proven. And by the time the riots reached Hebron, it was too late.
Speaker 5 (20:53)
and
⁓ Wrong.
and
Yardena Schwartz (21:17)
there
was a British police chief stationed in Hebron. And the Jewish leaders of Hebron on the morning of August 24, 1929, the day of the massacre, the Jewish leaders of Hebron went to the police chief and asked him, what can we do? How are you going to protect us? How are you going to prevent these rioters from killing us? Because they were hearing the chants outside, ⁓
Speaker 5 (21:23)
I'm out.
you know.
Yardena Schwartz (21:47)
death to the Jews, allahu akbar, all of the chants that we heard on August, sorry, on October 7th were heard also on August 24th, 1929. And the police chief, the British police chief told the Jewish leaders of Hebron that as long as you stay in your homes, you'll be safe.
Speaker 5 (22:03)
⁓ he didn't.
Yardena Schwartz (22:05)
He didn't have armed policemen. Also, all of the policemen except one were Arabs. They ended up participating in the massacre or just turning a blind eye. The British police chief in the end, the first shots he fired were after dozens of Jews had been killed. And it was only when the rioters turned their attacks to him, threatened to kill him, that's when he fired the first shot. And the rioters dispersed immediately. So we could have put an end to it very quickly.
Speaker 5 (22:15)
The
Yardena Schwartz (22:32)
to it.
Speaker 5 (22:34)
And.
Yardena Schwartz (22:34)
In the UK, he was hailed as a hero. He was praised for saving hundreds of Jews in Hebron, but it was actually, ironically, courageous Muslims who saved their Jewish neighbors. At least 200 Jews and as many as 400 were saved that day by their Muslim neighbors who hid them inside their homes or stood outside of their homes. ⁓ But it was just about two dozen Muslim families that saved Jews that day.
Speaker 5 (23:03)
you
Yardena Schwartz (23:03)
It's
amazing how many they managed to save, just two dozen of them, but 3,000 Muslim men out of a population of 20,000.
Speaker 5 (23:08)
.
David Hazony (23:12)
sorry
to interrupt. Please everyone make your phones silent. Thank you. Go on.
Yardena Schwartz (23:19)
So yeah, so 3,000 Muslim men out of a population of 20,000 Muslims in Hebron. a massive percentage of the population participated in these riots. Similar to October 7, after the men would carry out their slaughter of men, women and children in these Jewish homes, their wives and children would go into these homes and pillage them.
Speaker 5 (23:31)
and
Thank
Yardena Schwartz (23:47)
And there are testimonies
that on October 7th, when I woke up to the news, what had happened. hearing stories of survivors, it was just so chilling how similar these stories were. Because the testimony I had read about from survivors in 1929 told of how they waited silent under dead bodies for hours, ⁓ waiting for these people to leave the home. And they were just there with sacks stashing everything they could.
⁓ into their bags and they were waiting. The only reason they survived was because they were covered in the blood of their family members or friends. Altogether, the riot, the massacre in Hebron only lasted about two hours. That was when the British police chief Raymond Cafferata finally fired his first shot. And over the course of those two hours, 67 unarmed men, women, and children were
Speaker 5 (24:18)
You know, and the
And.
and
Yardena Schwartz (24:46)
brutally slaughtered. So on October 7th was with guns. In 1929 it was with swords, axes, daggers. No one was killed with a gun.
Speaker 5 (24:49)
as
David Hazony (24:59)
What strikes me as you tell that story is you're talking about a period, 1929, it's only 12 years after the Balfour Declaration. Okay, it's only less than a decade after the British bring in the mandatory system and make their promise that this will become the basis of a Jewish national home. And almost immediately, you see the emergence, for example, of the Mufti.
And I'll circle back to him in a second. But what you're describing feels like this weird blend between what Jews in Europe dealt with and the emergence of the Zionist movement in Palestine. have petitioning the British over woods to protect them. You have running to the British. You have this group of Jews living. There's a yeshiva there studying in Hebron who just can't believe that.
it'll happen to them the way it happened in Europe. And you have the Haganah which is the beginning of this very different Jewish approach and what ends up turning into the idea for the state of Israel. ⁓ Let's talk a little bit about the Mufti, because to me, you're not just telling a story with the parallels, October 7th. Your claim.
is it's actually the beginning of a story that culminates on October 7th. And it's all this thing this whole century is one long story. So let's talk a little bit about the Mufti's career. And it goes from the Mufti to Arafat to Hamas in a very sort of clear progression. Maybe talk a little bit about that.
Yardena Schwartz (26:46)
The reason the Grand Mufti well, one of many reasons he started this campaign of propaganda surrounding al-Aqsa and this Jewish plot to destroy it was because for years he had been accused, justifiably accused, of corruption, nepotism, misappropriation of WAC funds because he was also the head of the Supreme Muslim Council. ⁓ So he oversaw all Muslim holy sites, the Sharia courts.
Speaker 5 (27:14)
you
Yardena Schwartz (27:15)
And he
was often using these funds for his own purposes. In order to distract his own people from his own corruption and his own failure, really, to improve their lives, he started this rumor that was wildly successful. And we see that today with the failure of so many Palestinian leaders, not just Arafat and Hamas, but also with the Palestinian Authority as well.
Speaker 5 (27:19)
and
And the.
Yardena Schwartz (27:46)
Good.
Yardena Schwartz (27:47)
of this lie, which to us seems so absurd, because no one is working to destroy Al-Aqsa and replace it with ⁓ the temple. At least nobody taken seriously. And yet, it was just such a galvanizing force. And it really worked to distract from his corruption, so many of his political rivals in the press, in other... ⁓
Speaker 5 (28:15)
you.
Yardena Schwartz (28:17)
because the Grand Mufti was from one of two prominent Arab families in Palestine. It really just worked to quiet all of his opposition, because suddenly there was a much more threatening foe to contend with. And, you know, we have been the world's easiest scapegoat for, you know, thousands of years. It was no different then. And ⁓ just in sight,
Speaker 5 (28:22)
most prominent.
Mm.
Hey
Yardena Schwartz (28:42)
The Grand Mufti didn't.
Yardena Schwartz (28:44)
the riots of 1929, but he had already actually been exiled politically from Palestine before he was named the Grand Mufti by the first British High Commissioner of Palestine, who was actually Jewish and a Zionist, Herbert Samuel, appointed him to his post, despite the fact that he had already incited another riot back in 1920 in Jerusalem. And he pardoned him. He appointed him despite him being virulently
Speaker 5 (28:48)
⁓
And
Yardena Schwartz (29:14)
The opponents who were running for Grand Mufti, who actually won in the election over Grand, over Hajj Amin al-Husseini were far less anti-Semitic, if not in favor of cooperating with the Zionist movement, cooperating with the Jewish community of Palestine. He was virulently against. He was one of the most outspoken opponents of Zionism. And...
Speaker 5 (29:27)
You know what
the ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (29:42)
This was just one of the first examples of the British really mistakenly thinking that if they just kind of play both sides, play the ⁓ population and the Jewish population in terms of with the British mandate, the promise of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine was the central part of the British mandate. And so because that was seen as the reason for the Arab opposition to
Speaker 5 (29:49)
⁓
Arab.
Yardena Schwartz (30:11)
a Jewish homeland and to Jewish immigration, the thinking was, OK, well, if we just kind of do what the Mufti and other anti-Zionists want, we can just quiet that criticism. And it only strengthened him. So he became even more powerful after the massacre, because after the massacre, the British blamed the Jews. ⁓ There was a commission, and the Shaw Commission, following the riots, ended up pardoning the Mufti, allowing him to retain
Speaker 5 (30:17)
And just.
Yardena Schwartz (30:40)
powerful post the British had appointed him to. The British blamed this peaceful Jewish demonstration at the Western Wall for being the spark of the massacre. They ended up ⁓ issuing new policies, vastly limiting Jewish immigration and purchases. So there's a long history of blaming Jewish victims for our suffering. The Grand Mufti's legacy, really, it can't be understated.
Speaker 5 (31:03)
and
⁓ He
Yardena Schwartz (31:10)
He has
Speaker 5 (31:10)
has.
Yardena Schwartz (31:11)
managed to cast a cloud over really every Palestinian leader since, not just with the disinformation surrounding Al-Aqsa, but also the dynamic in which Palestinians who favor cooperation and peace and coexistence are labeled as collaborators. That began with the Mufi. He had his henchmen assassinate or intimidate or silence so many
Speaker 5 (31:17)
⁓
Thank ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (31:39)
Arab mayors ⁓ under the British mandate who favored cooperation with the Zionist movement or with the Jewish community, and those who spoke out in favor of Jewish immigration and Jewish industries like the citrus industry or cooperation with perhaps a mutual governance system that the British had wanted to put into place, but the Grand Mufti was ⁓ absolutely opposed to. ⁓
Speaker 5 (31:54)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (32:09)
He opposed not just the first two-state solution in 1937, but even a one-state solution in which Jews would continue to just be living under Arab rule. He was against that as well. When the British asked him what he thought should happen to the 400,000 Jews then living in Palestine in 1937, he said they should leave. Of course, in 1947, the Grand Mufti and every other Arab leader rejected.
Speaker 5 (32:18)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (32:38)
partition plan. And Yasser Arafat, was cousin who he trained in Cairo after he fled Palestine. ⁓ He actually fled Palestine and ended up living in Berlin for four years throughout World War II as a very lavishly paid Nazi accomplice, living in a Nazi-financed mansion, running the Arab branch of Joseph Gold's Ministry of Propaganda.
Yardena Schwartz (32:40)
You know, mentioned was the Grand Mufti.
And could really.
Speaker 4 (33:08)
Go
on and on about the credit.
David Hazony (33:09)
I'm the British were thrilled at his ⁓ gratitude when it came to World War II. ⁓ So what you're describing essentially is ⁓ the founder of what can call, what Einat Wilf calls Palestinianism, or the Palestinian National Movement. And what's amazing to see is, you talk about the ⁓ Muslim families, the Arab families in Hebron that shielded Jews. We know from...
from our experience on October 7 with Arab Israelis that when detached from this political movement, ⁓ you can almost see an alternative history that could have been. ⁓ Which is just, to me, one of the fascinating aspects of the book as well. ⁓ Maybe we should turn a little bit more to you. ⁓
Because I think that the conclusions that are drawn and the awareness that the problem of peace begins and ends to a large degree with this specific Palestinian national movement founded by the Mufti, carried forward by Yasser Arafat, and then embodied most powerfully, most recently, by Hamas, where Hamas actually has the advantage of being able to have full control of Gaza with an educational system and so forth.
⁓ Before we get to what next and what now, I want to ask, why did you write this book? How did you come across this subject? How did it happen that you threw yourself so deeply into a story from a century ago as kind of the starting point to understand the conflict?
Yardena Schwartz (35:02)
So.
Yardena Schwartz (35:03)
This book actually came to me.
I was introduced by Yossi Klein Halevi, who wrote
Yardena Schwartz (35:10)
was
on the stage with you about 10 years ago. That was where I first met him.
Yardena Schwartz (35:14)
He became a friend and mentor. And
in this family in Memphis, Tennessee that didn't know me or Yossi discovered a box of letters in their attic filled with hundreds of pages of letters written by their late uncle David Chainberg, who had moved to Hebron in 1928 to study at what was the most prestigious yeshiva in the land of Israel in British Mandate Palestine.
Yardena Schwartz (35:37)
them.
Yardena Schwartz (35:42)
And over the course of his year studying at the Hebron Yeshiva, he wrote these long, beautiful poetic letters to his family in Memphis every week for a full year until he was murdered in the Hebron Massacre. And when this family discovered his letters, they really didn't know much about David or about the massacre or about Hebron before the massacre. Like many of us, I think, didn't really know. I, for sure, didn't know much about
Speaker 5 (35:50)
⁓
or
You know, the.
Yardena Schwartz (36:11)
the
coexistence that had existed before the massacre. didn't know much about the massacre. This family realized that they were sitting on a treasure trove of history and went looking for someone who could tell that story. And they had approached Yossi, who was already an author of several books at that point. And Yossi loved the story, was captivated by the letters, but he couldn't take on the project. But he promised the family he would look for someone who could.
Speaker 5 (36:15)
on
and
Yardena Schwartz (36:40)
very honored and grateful that he asked me. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (36:45)
And as soon
as he asked me if I wanted to meet this family and perhaps tell their story, said, yes, but how do you write a book? Become my very generous mentor in writing this book for the next.
Yardena Schwartz (36:52)
and he proceeded.
five years. He lives in Jerusalem and he's still very good friend.
Yardena Schwartz (36:59)
Sadly, he couldn't be here tonight, but he will.
David Hazony (37:06)
Yes. So here we are. It's now 2025. We've been in a war since October 7th.
Yardena Schwartz (37:18)
today's.
Yardena Schwartz (37:18)
Day 600.
David Hazony (37:19)
And
today is day 600. And we saw hostages in Gaza, and we are not at all sure how and when this will end. And even if on the battlefield, we reach some kind of a decisive victory against Hamas, the questions your book raises are much deeper and much more powerful because in the intervening century, the Palestinian cause became a
first became the cause of the Arab world, which ⁓ was fully rejectionist. We remember the three nose of Khartoum in 1967, only broken finally by ⁓ the peace with Egypt, the peace with Jordan, more recently the Abraham Accords. But still the Palestine cause in the Muftis conception of it rages across the globe in many, different forms.
and expressed itself very powerfully on October 7th. Where do we go from here? Based on your insights, what could the future hold and what would it take to get there?
Yardena Schwartz (38:30)
So I have to say, I've often thought that the Mufti would be very happy with what we're seeing in across America and Europe with the embrace of his rejectionist ideology, his embrace of armed resistance to Jewish sovereignty on any part of homeland. But I think that
Speaker 5 (38:37)
in
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (38:50)
resistant.
All right.
Speaker 5 (38:58)
You
Yardena Schwartz (38:59)
as I
Yardena Schwartz (38:59)
wrote in
the book, while so much has changed, so much has remained the same. And one of those things that has remained the same is that there are people who want peace within the Palestinian population. What was then Arabs of Palestine? Of course, Jews were also Palestinians then. So there are voices for peace within Palestinian society. Sadly, the ones we hear the loudest are not
Speaker 5 (39:11)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (39:12)
the Arab population.
Speaker 5 (39:19)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (39:22)
for announcing.
Yardena Schwartz (39:28)
living in the West Bank or Gaza because they would be dead if they did, or if they would be silenced or intimidated, much like the Mufti did with his rivals and his, you know, the so-called collaborators. But I think that there have been a lot of missed opportunities for Western leaders, for Israel also, to strengthen those voices and to help create a reality where these people are the ones who are leading.
because the only reason why we're seeing children grow up to aspire to become martyrs or terrorists is because that's what they're being taught in their schools. know, children aren't born want to be terrorists. They're not born to want to kill Jews. They're taught to by their leaders, by media, by their educators, by their parents. But the only way we'll be able to have a different future is if, you know, from ground up, the people who...
Yardena Schwartz (40:05)
talk.
Speaker 5 (40:12)
⁓
There you
Yardena Schwartz (40:26)
recognize the failure of this kind of thinking, the failure of armed resistance, the failure of this rejectionism, of this insistence upon not working to improve their own lives, but only working to destroy ours. I mean, that began with the Mufti. I mean, he had so much capability in his hands. The British appointed him to his role. He could have used
Speaker 5 (40:45)
you know, the
Yardena Schwartz (40:53)
his position to improve the lives of Arabs in Palestine who were overwhelmingly illiterate and uneducated. Instead, he used that power to just subvert the Jewish population.
Speaker 5 (41:02)
⁓
And, you know.
Yardena Schwartz (41:07)
it reduce their ability to worship freely, incite violence against them. We see how throughout history that has been the trajectory of all Palestinian leaders. Instead of using the aid that Palestinian Authority receives or that Hamas receives for the improvement of Palestinian lives, it's used just to destroy ours. Yet I think that there could have been ⁓ efforts
Speaker 5 (41:11)
you know.
that.
Yardena Schwartz (41:29)
used.
Speaker 5 (41:31)
And
Yardena Schwartz (41:36)
throughout the years to empower different kinds of Palestinian leaders. ⁓ think that the expectation for Palestinians to rise up among themselves on their own without that kind of support is just not realistic. It's just too dangerous. throughout this war, I've always been really inspired by those voices within Palestinian society.
Yardena Schwartz (41:43)
for.
Speaker 5 (41:46)
you know.
Yardena Schwartz (41:57)
just.
Speaker 5 (41:59)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (42:02)
within Palestinian.
Yardena Schwartz (42:05)
often they're not living here. They've gotten asylum in Europe or in the US, but they exist. And there is opposition to Hamas and the protests in Gaza were also a sign of that. But sadly, I don't think enough.
Speaker 5 (42:22)
you know.
Yardena Schwartz (42:23)
focus has been, not enough resources have been invested in making that a more powerful alternative to the kind of leadership the Palestinians have had for the last 100 years. And I think that's really the only hope for any kind of change here, because so long as their leaders continue to follow in the path of the Mufti and Arafat and Hamas, we're never going to have peace.
Yardena Schwartz (42:23)
focus.
Fur-
follow.
Speaker 5 (42:49)
And, you know,
Yardena Schwartz (42:53)
Israelis are going to continue sending our children to the army. As a mother both my children were born while I writing this book. Like every, I think, Israeli parent hopes that by the time their kids reach 18, they won't need to defend
Yardena Schwartz (42:54)
you need to.
Speaker 5 (42:57)
And as a
Yardena Schwartz (43:01)
You know, everything Israeli.
they will defend.
Speaker 5 (43:11)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (43:12)
our country from these never-ending wars against us. But I mean, I think so long as there is no alternative to Hamas or alternative to that kind of leadership, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 5 (43:20)
us.
⁓ And, you know, my hope, like, I think that...
Yardena Schwartz (43:31)
And with the
Yardena Schwartz (43:33)
My is that this war will end. The hostages will be released and we can work towards creating that kind of reality. will take many years, but I don't think that we can afford to just settle for.
Yardena Schwartz (43:48)
the status quo.
David Hazony (43:50)
It's a good sentiment. think it's a good opportunity to turn to the audience for questions.
Questions will be led by Paul.
Paul Gross (44:02)
OK, I'm going to ask my colleague, El Raz.
David Hazony (44:10)
I'll just take this opportunity to remind you to let you know, first of all, that this copy of the book has been signed by Yrdenna, and you too can have a copy of the book signed by Yrdenna after this event.
Paul Gross (44:23)
Okay, questions before I go to questions, I want to give the usual reminder, please make the questions question with an obvious question mark at the end and short. ⁓
So this gentleman here.
You might switch it on.
David Hazony (45:01)
The topic that you just brought up, finding moderate or whatever you want to call them, Palestinian leaders, leadership, and then our responsibility for supporting them. Now the problem is, it sounds like you're saying it's Israel's responsibility to find these people and support them. But the world here is that the Jews, right, the ones who are supporting these people, then it becomes like this Jewish conspiracy.
Then we have the issue, what about the billion, whatever, billion point what number of Arab world, people in the Arab world? We don't look at them as having any responsibility for supporting them. And that kind of silence is something that also needs to be really brought into our dialogue.
Question? Reflect on it. Is that not true?
Yardena Schwartz (45:53)
I didn't hear.
Yardena Schwartz (45:56)
next.
David Hazony (45:56)
The question is, when you were just saying we have to support the moderates and we could really change history if we could, are you saying it from the perspective that Israel needs to be the ones to do this? Or are you saying that the Arab world needs to become responsible to doing this?
Yardena Schwartz (46:14)
think anyone interested or who claims to be interested in wanting peace here needs to do this. So that includes Israel, includes the US, European leaders. And I think that there are a lot of ways that can be done. One of those ways is conditioning aid to the Palestinians.
changing ⁓ the way that they teach their children, changing the way they portray Jews in Palestinian TV and Palestinian press. think there are so many ways this can be done. It's not just a matter of finding these individual people and propping them up. agree. I think it was smart that Israel didn't get behind.
Speaker 5 (46:44)
in on. ⁓
But.
Yardena Schwartz (47:02)
in an open way, the protests in Gaza, because that would just feed into Hamas's claim that these protests were funded by Israel, which is what they were claiming. But I think that the international community and Arab countries, obviously, I just, I'm not delusional. mean, so many Arab countries have benefited tremendously from the perpetuation of this conflict, which is why Palestinians haven't been given citizenship.
Speaker 5 (47:11)
⁓
our
Yardena Schwartz (47:31)
where they fled to after a war that Arab states launched. I so I just think, yes, Arab countries, of course, should be doing this if they claim to really support Palestinian freedom and liberation. I think the people who will stand to benefit most from peace here, aside from Palestinians, first and foremost us, is I think every Israeli wants to live in peace here.
Speaker 5 (47:44)
you
I mean.
Yardena Schwartz (47:59)
war is against us to end. And I just really think that the only way that will happen is if there's a different kind of Palestinian leadership.
Paul Gross (48:08)
Okay, so the lady here with Israeli foot spur has taken the mic. So I'm going to give you the benefit just to take the initiative. I'm going to let you have this, but make the question short. I recognize there are other people's hands up and I will come to them. Yes. Lady with the mic.
Yardena Schwartz (48:25)
My name is Ruth and Yardena. I want to ask you a question as a journalist. you talked about the Mufti and how he used propaganda. But you when you think about what happened then 100 years ago and how the Mufti managed to get this message out to all the Arabs that Jews were trying to take over the Temple Mount or the the Al-Aqsa Mosque. And then you think about today.
and you think about the media and how the media portrays this. we would just talk to Yodena before this talk about that. And I would just like to hear your thoughts on the role that the media plays in this conflict and how it's so, I mean, it's not just the one voice of the Mufti today. And today you have social media and mainstream media and everyone, you know.
presenting their opinions and perpetuating lies. So ⁓ how can we contend with that today?
Yardena Schwartz (49:25)
Yeah, so as.
Yardena Schwartz (49:27)
journalist
I've really been.
Yardena Schwartz (49:31)
just horror.
Yardena Schwartz (49:32)
by the way in which organizations and journalists have not, have not only failed in the fundamental purpose of journalism, which is to reveal the truth, but have actually become players in this conflict and purveyors of the same propaganda that these, you know, antisemitic, antisemitic leaders are ⁓ providing them with. They're just spouting this propaganda and recycling it.
Yardena Schwartz (49:34)
News are.
Yardena Schwartz (50:02)
And one example of that is this in which Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount is portrayed. It sounds like it could come from the office. mean, this idea of Jews storming Al-Aqsa.
Speaker 5 (50:04)
⁓ The way.
Yardena Schwartz (50:16)
propaganda.
Speaker 5 (50:21)
you know.
Yardena Schwartz (50:23)
Yes, the status quo is one in which Jews are not permitted to pray, but should that one or a few Jews praying in the Temple Mountain challenge that, challenging that status quo, or even the national security minister, who I disagree with, but like that, but should those actions be portrayed in the way they're being portrayed? No, of course not. They're reinforcing this disinformation.
Yardena Schwartz (50:38)
deeply dis-
Speaker 5 (50:46)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (50:51)
And that's just one example, but we've seen so many examples since October 7th, starting with the.
Speaker 5 (51:00)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (51:02)
supposed Israeli airstrike on Al Ali Hospital in October 2023, which immediately was portrayed as an Israeli airstrike, straight out of the mouths of Hamas. Across the board, New York Times, CNN, even the Wall Street Journal was parroting these claims coming from Gaza that it was an Israeli airstrike despite the fact that the airstrike was still pending. And the claims from Israel that very day that it was a misfired
Speaker 5 (51:13)
you know.
Yardena Schwartz (51:24)
hospital was still standing.
Yardena Schwartz (51:32)
rocket from Islamic Jihad was treated as propaganda when really the exact opposite was true. It turned out to be a misfire rocket from Islamic Jihad. The corrections and apologies from places like the New York Times came too late for anyone to care. And to this day, there are people who still think it was an Israeli airstrike. And the same could be said for so many different ⁓ examples of Hamas dictating the stories of the day for some of most respected
news organizations. And so it's really shocking to think that from 1929 to today, the profession of journalism, our profession, that I was once and I guess still am, has fallen so far. mean, in 1929, the massacre in Hebron and the riots in Palestine occupied the front page of nearly every newspaper in America, in the world.
Yardena Schwartz (52:17)
proud to be a part of.
Yardena Schwartz (52:31)
And the New York Times had on its headlines, know, Muslims jobs, Jews, know, headlines that you would never imagine seeing on the front page of the New York Times, no matter how true they would be today. You know, at that time, journalists were doing their job ⁓ and the lies being perpetrated by the Arab leadership, claiming that Jews and Hevron had killed each other, that ⁓ Yeshiva students had
Speaker 5 (52:50)
.
Yardena Schwartz (53:00)
perpetrated this massacre to raise funds from the diaspora. All of these ridiculous claims were treated as ridiculous claims in newspapers like the New York Times. Those lies were presented as lies. Journalists and newspapers weren't trying to justify the massacre of 1929. Fast forward nearly a century later, you would think that the profession of journalism would only be even more advanced.
Speaker 5 (53:19)
and
Yardena Schwartz (53:27)
more sophisticated and instead it's treating these denials and lies and absurdities with the same ⁓ degree of credibility as claims coming from the Israeli government or from the IDF. Readers are left to decide what's true and what's false. that shouldn't be the job of readers. That's supposed to be the job of journalists.
Speaker 5 (53:35)
⁓
And.
Paul Gross (53:54)
Okay. ⁓ Wait a second. Okay, so we have two more questions. this, that's fine, that's fine. This idea here and then Jeff here and then we'll finish I think, yes.
Yardena Schwartz (54:09)
I would like to understand from a totally different perspective your take on biblical and nevuah and all the things that we know about our relationship to Eisav and to Ishmael and do you compute anything into your political and journalistic thinking of where all the prophecies and how everything to me it seems very very much what's going on today not so much a reflection of the past
but rather a reflection of the future. That this is our destiny. That's how I see it. And I wonder if you see that at all. I'm sorry. I'm really not a biblical expert or a Judaica expert. I don't think I can really answer that.
Speaker 5 (54:53)
or
Paul Gross (54:59)
Are
you saying that it's destiny that the Jews and Arabs would be fighting each other because of Isaac and Ishmael? that the claim?
Yeah, it's not in your wheel. Thank you for the question. Okay, last question I think we'll have from Jeff.
Yardena Schwartz (55:14)
Yeah, sorry. ⁓
David Hazony (55:20)
⁓ Yardena, was wondering whether you could talk a little bit about the Shaw Commission. That was the British mandated commission that was charged with the responsibility of investigating the riots and their possible causes. I personally was very troubled by some of those conclusions, but it's much more important what you think of those conclusions.
Yardena Schwartz (55:45)
So the shock mission.
Yardena Schwartz (55:47)
was extremely detailed. mean, they carried out hundreds of hours of hearings. ⁓ And if you look at the testimony, it's actually four different volumes. ⁓ Just the report of the Shaw Commission is several hundred pages. But ⁓ the hearings, there's thousands of pages. I didn't read all thousands of them, but I read many of the testimonies, including the ones
Speaker 5 (56:16)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (56:16)
from the Grand Mufti and
various British officials and Jewish survivors of the massacre, not only in Hebron, but survivors in other parts of Palestine, like Tzvad in Jerusalem. And it's very clear from hearings what was the cause of the riots, which was the purpose of the Shah Commission was to determine the causes of the riots. What you realize from the report of the Shah Commission is that
Yardena Schwartz (56:45)
their purpose.
Yardena Schwartz (56:45)
was
to try to deflect any kind of fault of their own, of the British, ⁓ in preventing these riots, quelling these riots. They ended up quelling them over the course of a week through air, land, and sea. They brought in warships and warplanes throughout the British Empire, because until 1929, there was no British military force in Palestine. It was just a Palestine police force. It was overwhelmingly Arab.
Obviously that failed because so many of the Arab policemen ended up participating in the riots, not just in Hebron, but elsewhere as well. But if you read the hearings, know, and especially the Grand Muftis, he quotes from the protocols of the elders of Zion. He continues to claim that the Jews are working to destroy Al Aqsa Mosque. And, know, it's extremely clear from the hearings what really caused the massacre and the riots, which was the incitement and the disinformation. But then you go to the conclusions
Speaker 5 (57:32)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (57:43)
And the British write that the Arab fears of Jewish immigration and Jewish land purchases, and I always say purchases, because none of this land was being stolen. It was being purchased at exorbitant prices from Arab landowners who often would then turn around and tell their people that Jews were stealing that land, evicting them from it. Yes, so their conclusions were that these fears of Jewish immigration and land purchases were legitimate.
Speaker 5 (57:55)
of
and even. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (58:12)
it was kind of a macro version of the victim blaming. that Arab leaders were literally blaming the atrocities on the Jews, saying that the Jews actually carried out these massacres, not the Arabs. ⁓ But then it was the British saying, OK, the Jews are to blame because it's all of the immigrants coming from Europe fleeing pogroms and anti-Semitism that are to blame.
Yardena Schwartz (58:21)
The.
Yardena Schwartz (58:41)
for this sentiment.
Yardena Schwartz (58:41)
this.
Speaker 5 (58:42)
⁓ And, you know.
Yardena Schwartz (58:45)
It's just very eerily similar to the victim blaming we saw after October 7th. And it's just, it's often really depressing to think like how little.
Speaker 5 (58:50)
Hmm.
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (58:58)
people have learned from history. And I think that's one of the main goals I have for this book is to try to not just educate people about the true context behind October 7th, but also educate anyone who really does want peace in the dangers of allowing disinformation and propaganda to flood the airwaves, the media, and education system as well.
Speaker 5 (59:04)
you
⁓ you know.
Yardena Schwartz (59:27)
I think especially in the US, it's so dangerous because all of this is protected by free speech. I think people have lost sight of where free speech ends and hate speech begins. And it's so clear, especially after the attack in Washington, how dangerous this free speech can be.
Speaker 5 (59:32)
time.
Paul Gross (59:51)
OK, I see there are a number of people that still want to ask questions. So what I'm going to do is I saw three hands up. I'm going to ask maybe if we can just take three short questions in a row, all three of you, and then if you can just sort of combine your answers to those. So the gentleman that has the mic, then the lady here in the front, and then this guy.
David Hazony (1:00:18)
Yeah, Dana Shalom, Dan Schill. Nice to see you. My question is as follows. To what extent, in light of the message that you end this evening on, should we be placing a spotlight on our own leaders in terms of their desire to seek real peace?
Paul Gross (1:00:42)
Okay, if you can take.
Okay, just... Delay is off.
Okay.
David Hazony (1:01:03)
Thank you.
Yardena Schwartz (1:01:05)
Thanks. just wanted to say, hi, just wanted to say that I think that the title of the book says it all, the ghosts of a holy war. How do you fight against a holy war? How do you change the Quran?
Paul Gross (1:01:22)
Okay, thank you for a very short question and then the final one over here. We're giving our...
Our question here, a workout?
David Hazony (1:01:42)
Just a quick question on a personal level. Your background is mainstream media as a journalist. And I was just wondering that today, in spite of the fact that we Jake Tapper once in a while saying, may his memory be for a blessing, are you employable as a journalist in the mainstream media? OK.
Yardena Schwartz (1:02:08)
So for the dance.
Yardena Schwartz (1:02:08)
First, I'll get to Dan Schell's
question. Dan Schell is actually a relative of the book, I could say. ⁓ His aunt was David Schoenberg's, who I spoke of before, the young man whose letters were the genesis of this book. Without giving too much away, his aunt was a friend of David's. And I interviewed Dan for the book. Your question about our leaders and whether we should
Speaker 5 (1:02:16)
here.
⁓
and book.
Yardena Schwartz (1:02:37)
know,
look to our leader, of course, I mean, of course, we should look to our leaders to help us find a way out of this mess. And I think that, you when I mentioned this opportunities, I think that this might not be a very popular thing to say right now, but I think that it's pretty clear that there needed to be, and needs to be some kind of political solution to this war that, you know,
Yardena Schwartz (1:02:51)
You
Speaker 5 (1:02:57)
⁓ that
Yardena Schwartz (1:03:05)
Killing another Hamas terrorist is not going to make us any safer. Sadly, there's no shortage of people to replace every Hamas leader who we assassinate. We've been assassinating Hamas leaders for decades, and there's always someone seemingly worse to replace them. And I think that in the early days of the war, there were several ways that Hamas truly could have been defeated. mean, if Hamas's goal was to derail the Saudi normalization deal,
to really place the Palestinian cause on the world stage that could have been derailed from the very beginning with the ⁓ efforts to force regime change in Gaza. And I think many of us in Israel thought after October 7th that that's what was going to happen. There'd be regime change in Gaza. And there were ideas to create a different kind of, you know, a rehabilitated version of the Palestinian Authority, which
Israel cooperates with in the West Bank. I mean, the Palestinian Authority is not perfect, but it's surely much better than having Hamas continue to rule in Gaza. And I think that's one of the ways, you the famous saying of, you know, Palestinian leaders never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I do think that, you know, that was an opportunity that could have led to a real change in Gaza and to a true defeat of Hamas.
Speaker 5 (1:04:09)
⁓
⁓
you
and.
Yardena Schwartz (1:04:30)
You know,
I think that that's something that we're going to need to hope for, that our own leaders continue to really want peace and work towards peace. Obviously, it's not up to us to go back to your question. It's not only up to us. You know, we need the other side and our enemies to also want peace, which doesn't seem like they want right now. But I think we can only strive for that and demand that from our own leaders. The question of
Speaker 5 (1:04:51)
you
Yardena Schwartz (1:04:59)
whether we can ever solve this holy war. don't think that this holy war is between Judaism and Islam. At the end of the day, it's between those who weaponize religion and glorify violence. And there are plenty of violent elements in the Torah that you could point to. But nobody is elevating those messages. ⁓ I think that that is a uniquely
Speaker 5 (1:05:05)
time.
You know.
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (1:05:27)
Islamic problem, not only here, but around the world, know, extremist, Islamic extremism, focusing on elements within that ⁓ perpetuate violence and jihad. think that, you know, there are, you know, not all Muslims want that or support that or, you know, are jihadists, of course. But, you know, I think that that's who the war is against. And I think that, you know, naming my book,
Speaker 5 (1:05:30)
⁓
you know.
in the Quran.
Yardena Schwartz (1:05:56)
know, ghosts of holy war. It's to remind so many people that this war is not just a war over land. It's not just a political war, you know, made out to be. It's very much fueled by religion and religious extremists. And, you know, I think that, like I said earlier, I think stamping out that kind of weaponization of Islam, ⁓ that kind of religious extremism is, you know, should be much more of a focus of
Speaker 5 (1:06:02)
⁓
Yardena Schwartz (1:06:04)
it is.
Speaker 5 (1:06:12)
.
Yardena Schwartz (1:06:25)
those who, the leaders who seek peace. Am I employable in the mainstream media? I don't know, I don't even like know how to answer that question because I don't think I want to work.
Yardena Schwartz (1:06:37)
in mainstream
media. Like, I just really...
Speaker 5 (1:06:40)
and
Yardena Schwartz (1:06:41)
I've kind of given up. I think it's become very much activists and not really journalistic. And I intend to remain a journalist. I just don't think it looks like working at a news organization. I've also pretty much always been freelance for most of my career, at least going back to when I moved to Israel. And I very much enjoy being a freelance journalist. ⁓
Yardena Schwartz (1:06:43)
mainstream media. ⁓
Any more, sadly?
Speaker 5 (1:06:51)
and
Yardena Schwartz (1:07:03)
career.
Speaker 5 (1:07:03)
⁓
Paul Gross (1:07:12)
Okay. Well, ⁓ I want to thank firstly, everyone for joining us both in person and on Zoom. I want to thank David Khazoni for his usual eloquence and brilliance as a moderator and of course, Yodanish Schwartz for writing this wonderful book and coming to talk to us about it. ⁓ Thank you to the Z3 project as well for their support and their collaboration. ⁓ And here at the Bager Center, if anyone is looking for an English language, Tikkun Lel Sheva-Wat, in Jerusalem, we have a wonderful program here.
on Erev Shavuot this Sunday night, starting from 12 o'clock, from 11 o'clock in Hebrew, from 12 o'clock ⁓ in English. Thank you everyone. Thank you David. Thank you Odena. Books are available outside. buy.
David Hazony (1:07:51)
Thank
and November 9th Z3 conference Palo Alto, California. would love to see you all there.
