Jewish Identity Starts Here: The Power of Jewish Summer Camp—The Z3 Podcast
Jewish summer camp in the US is, for many, a key moment of rooting in Jewish identity that informs the path of young Jews for the rest of their lives. In this episode of the Z3 Podcast, Rabbi Amitai Fraiman is joined by Dr. Shelley Kedar of the Jewish Agency for Israel and Michael Schlank, CEO of NJY Camps. Together, they explore how bringing together Jews from Israel and America, across backgrounds, denominations, and identities to summer camp helps young people engage with questions of belonging, peoplehood, and their relationship to Israel. Since October 7, the presence of Israeli shlichim at camp has taken on new emotional meaning, as they carry the trauma of war while also offering a chance to build empathy and solidarity. This is a deep dive into how camp can serve as a foundation for raising a generation of Jews who are rooted, resilient, and prepared to navigate the complexities of Jewish life and identity today.
About Our Guests
Dr. Shelley Kedar is the director of Connecting the Jewish People Unit at the Jewish Agency for Israel, one of the three key missions called for by the Jewish Agency’s vision. Connecting the Jewish people Unit focuses on four key strategies in which it holds a unique competitive advantage: partnerships, immersive experiences, peoplehood and pluralism, and emissaries (Shlichim). She previously served as the founding director of The Adelson Shlichut Institute within the Jewish Agency, responsible for developing and implementing content and training for all shlichim worldwide. She served as the Director of the Jewish Agency Israel Fellows program and senior representative to Hillel. Kedar was Hillel International’s first VP of Israel Education and Engagement and oversaw the creation of an Israel Action Program that strengthens and supports Hillel’s Israel related programming on campus. Shelley Kedar served as Director of the International School for Jewish Peoplehood Studies at Beit Hatfutsot, was the Director of Professional Development at the Leo Baeck Education Center and the Jewish Agency for Israel educational emissary to Liberal Judaism in Great Britain. Kedar earned a BA in Political Science, Media and Jewish Studies and an MA in Leadership and Informal Education Institutions Management at Bar Ilan University and a Doctorate in Jewish Education at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York.
Michael Schlank: In September 2020, Michael was appointed as CEO of NJY Camps- the largest residential Jewish summer camp organization in North America. NJY’s innovative and groundbreaking work has been featured and recognized in: The Jewish Standard, The Jewish Link, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Jerusalem Post, and the Times of Israel. Michael was a member of Leading Edge’s CEO Fellow Cohort IV and A Preside Fellow Michael has served on the Security Committee, Board of Trustees, Executive Committee, and as President of his synagogue. He is a member of the AIPAC Long Island Council and served on the Board of Hofstra Hillel. Michael’s writing has appeared in the Jewish Standard, 1840, The Jerusalem Post, eJP, and on The Times of Israel Blogs. After graduating from SUNY Albany Michael earned an MA at Hofstra and an MS.Ed. from C.W. and an Advanced Certificate in Educational Leadership from SUNY Stony Brook Post.
Video Transcript
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (00:07)
Hello and welcome to the Z3 Project podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman the founding director of the Z3 Project. And this is our podcast. In today's conversation, we explore how summer camps are a crucible for Jewish peoplehood. You know, I'm Israeli. I didn't grow up in the U.S. and I never really had the chance to go to camp myself. And I really was struck on how much I learned from this episode. And hopefully for you as well, whether you are a seasoned camp goer, you've worked at camp, your kids go to camp and you've never been to camp, you'll find this this episode as impactful and meaningful as I did. And in this episode,
at the great opportunity and tzchut to be joined by two of my friends and colleagues. The first is Dr. Shelley Kedar. She leads the Connecting the Jewish People unit at the Jewish Agency for Israel. She has decades of experience training emissaries and crafting immersive peoplehood programs. Shelley helps us unpack the core ingredients, the rituals, the team challenges, and pluralistic exchanges that foster lifelong belonging. The second guest is another dear friend, Michael Shlank. He's the CEO of NJY Camps. It's one of North America's largest residential Jewish camp network. He's a thought
leader. His work has been featured in the New York Times, the Jerusalem Post, Times of Israel and other places. And he shares really from on the ground his perspective how camp innovators are adapting to today's youth and deepening Israel-Diaspora ties and navigating political diversity since October 7th. Their full bios are in the description of the episode. That's just a snippet ⁓ of who they are what they bring to this conversation. And in it, we answer questions like what makes camp so transformative, which everyday moments, cabin rituals or late night sing-alongs are most powerful in shaping identity, how Israeli schluchim
bridge gaps and fit into the camp setting. All these and more is in our conversation. So you know whether this is your first time learning about Jewish camps and their impact, you're a long-time camp goer, I really hope this episode is as informative and inspiring as I have found it. And before we begin I just want to remind you all to visit the Z3 Project website, sign up for our email, follow us on our various social channels, and most importantly don't forget that the nominations for the 2025 Z3 Bridge Builder Award
are now open. It's a $10,000 prize. Go on the website, learn about the eligibility, either nominate someone or nominate yourself. It's a great time to highlight your work and for us to all celebrate at our conference and know the people who are leading the way in building bridges within our own community between Israel and diaspora, between communities internally and elsewhere. So again, enjoy this episode. Follow us on socials. This is the Z3 Project podcast. I am Amitai Fraiman, the founding director. Enjoy this episode.
episode
about Jewish camps and their power in shaping and building Jewish community.
Amitai Fraiman (02:47)
Hi Michael, hi Shelley, welcome to the Z3 Podcast
Dr. Shelley Kedar (02:50)
Hello
Michael Schlank (02:52)
Shalom,
hi. Thank you for having us.
Amitai Fraiman (02:54)
Yeah, it's great. I'm really excited for this conversation, very much looking forward to it. ⁓ you know, it's summer, middle of summer, I think. In our camp, least, we're just starting about start second sessions. The day camp is different, but we're right in the heart of this. And, you know, very excited to hear your perspectives on camp in general this summer in particular, mixing between Israelis and Americans on campus. On the camps, there's a lot to cover. So we'll jump. ⁓
⁓ We'll jump right into it ⁓ and just start off the bat with the first question, just to have people kind of set the space because it's widely accepted, I'd say, or widely accepted, I should say. It's still morning here, my English is catching up with my coffee intake. But it's widely accepted that summer camp, that Jewish summer camps are one of the most important, if not the most important ⁓ component in creating an identity for young Jewish campers also. ⁓
leaders and counselors, and it plays such a significant role. if you look at the time that we'll spend in camp, I'm curious from your perspective, least to get us started on this, like, are the main ingredients at camp that make it so impactful on one's identity? And we'll start, know, at first we'll probably start with, you know, Michael, Shelley, Shelley, Michael, and then this will all warm up and it'll be great. So yeah, what would it alphabetically do? Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (04:17)
alphabetically.
Michael Schlank (04:21)
I mean, we should go, if you want to start with me, that's fine, but Shelley's certainly more august here. Okay, I'll start for sure. ⁓ So thank you again and thank you, it's a pleasure seeing you Shelley.
So I think the secret sauce ⁓ is actually pretty simple to think about. ⁓ I think about it in three parts. The first part is it's immersive, right? We take, especially in a residential camp, you take young people and put them in an experience in which they are 24-7, living and breathing ⁓ and meeting challenges with one another, ⁓ with peers and with adults.
some of them who they've known for years and some of them who they're just meeting. So there's this immersive quality of that that's really unique ⁓ in their experiences because that's not something that people typically do in their lives. They don't typically live and work with people ⁓ for two or three or four or seven weeks at a time. That's number one. Number two is we take ⁓ young people out of their comfort zone and we put them into a place that's different and you get to take on a persona.
in camp that you might not necessarily have at home, whether that's your Jewish life or your sports persona or your theater persona, whatever that might be. And we give you that opportunity to sort of think about yourself in a different way. And the third thing I think from a Jewish lens is that it's very rare that ⁓ we get this opportunity to be, for many of our young people, to be so deeply immersed in Jewish life.
on an ongoing daily basis, surrounded by you constantly with the values and morals and ethics ⁓ as the underpinnings to everything that we do. And that's true if you're coming from, that might be a little bit different if you're coming from a day school, if you're from a modern Orthodox or Dati camp, right? That might be a little bit different, but for our more pluralistic camps, that is certainly the case, that this is the singular time in your life in which your Jewish identity is primary. ⁓
And that's true of your connection to Israel also. Even if you're in a modern Orthodox world, Israel may not be the only thing that you think about. ⁓ But in America, ⁓ if you're in one of our camps, Israel is something that you are forced to think about every minute of the day because you're living and working and ⁓ spending time with Israelis in a way that you never would at home. So I think those are the kind of things that we think about.
why campus?
Amitai Fraiman (07:04)
So you listed immersion, the fact that you're in it for such an intense intensity of it, the freedom that comes with it. In other words, get to, it's because it's removed from your regular, in most cases, your regular kind of environment that lets you kind of to explore or express components that might be less in the front during the year. And the third is the, guess, and this to me ties with the immersion, the immersiveness of it. Maybe there's a distinction that you wanna make a little bit more, but in terms of the, I'd say the...
the Jewishness of it, where that's the primary lens for you to experience it. And that goes hand in hand with immersiveness, I guess. ⁓
Michael Schlank (07:41)
It does, but I think it's more about the primacy issue, right? It's that you can emerge, you can, know, all residential camps or D camps in general, a camp in general is an immersive experience, but the idea of partnering primacy with immersion together make this is a unique experience.
Amitai Fraiman (07:59)
It's almost like I'd say this with, you people don't love this word, but I'll use it because I use it also lovingly about the context I work in. But it's a shtetl of sorts, right? Like if all throughout the year you're kind of out in the world in a minority kind of setting, here in the summer you're like in a little Jewish village ⁓ and you're playing out like this kind of almost utopian experience where there's nothing that's questioning or doubting that version of you.
Michael Schlank (08:08)
Yes.
That's right.
the final thing that I'll say about this and then I'll stop talking for a moment so Shelley can speak, is the Israel piece is universal no matter where you come from. Even if you're a modern Orthodox kid who spends their entire time in day school, mean Israel is important. It can't possibly be as important as it is in these experiences because you're not living and working alongside Israelis in the same way that you are in this experience.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (08:46)
Thank
Amitai Fraiman (08:51)
I mean, that's a perfect segue. Michael really teed it up beautifully. mean, you give me a wall. you know, I mean, you've been, you've seen that part of the equation for quite some time. You've moved up in the Sokhnut and Jaffee over the years. And right now, one of the things that you do is really oversee, this is only one element of your work, but you oversee these delegations of Israelis that go to camp. So maybe from your perspective, both this question and the Israel piece.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (08:54)
Yeah.
Yeah. So I think from my perspective, the camp is unique because it allows two really important features. One is the collective to feel part of a whole, which I think all of us seek in this very ⁓ isolated individual world. We really, really are trying to find our collective selves and camp allows this, but it also allows it from the other end by ⁓ providing choice as opposed to other Jewish events.
I think young people don't choose the way that they enact Judaism. So parents choose for them if you go to Jewish kindergarten or if you go to Jewish school, if you go to even a Jewish youth movement. And definitely Bar or Bat Mitzvah is not, I think, a choice. It wasn't for my children anyways. Maybe other parents are more liberal. And I think camp is really a choice and a choice where you choose the collective that you want to belong to Jewishly. And I think that's extremely powerful. ⁓
I think that was the purpose of camps, you when they were created in the United States way back, you know, previous century. And I think that was the reason that Israelis were prominent at a camps, you know, for like five, six of the past decades. Because when you think about the collective and you think about choice, you're also thinking about what this collective looks like. And Jewish life collectively looks like rituals and it looks like songs that everybody knows how to sing. But it also looks like Israelis coming to your camp.
and just being part of this big community. So from our perspective, there's a really ⁓ dual purpose here. On the one hand is when you create this collective atmospheric camp, you bring in Israelis because they're inherent to the Jewish collective, whether we like them or not. Sometimes we love Israelis and sometimes we less love them, probably depending on the Israelis or the day. ⁓
And the other end of it is that for Israelis to understand that there's actually a Jewish collective that is beyond the borders of Israel, to come to camp is an incredible aha moment. And all of you have seen Shlichim when they arrive at camp and take that moment to sort of have the whole collective experience sink down. You know, the fact that there are camp rituals, there's a camp language, know, chadar ochel is not called the same way in different camps. There's like the way that you sit here, there's the way that you clap here.
There's, you know, even I've learnt across the years, there's camp clocks, know, the time is different on different camps. So you really are creating a very, very intensive collective experience. And then for Israelis who come from a very collective, you know, environment, we're a majority in this country and we feel like, you know, we don't have a sense of minority, like you said, Michael, on the contrary. And then you come to this collective and you said, my God, I didn't realise my perspective is, so narrow.
⁓ It's like, ⁓ there's more of us out there. And it's an infatuation really with something that again is counterculture today to feel part of something that's bigger than yourself.
Amitai Fraiman (12:25)
Yeah, I think that's that. Go ahead, for sure.
Michael Schlank (12:25)
It's really interesting and if I could just jump on one of the points that I think is not only the collective,
it's the safety and I mean that social emotional safety of being able to be connected to somebody in a way where ⁓ there's no outside influence that's disturbing that and you can really be you in a way that's really unique and Israelis and Americans can connect in this really safe space.
both physically and emotionally, think that's part of that collective as well.
Amitai Fraiman (12:56)
Yeah. So I want to unpack that the interaction in a moment, what you both of you said beautifully is that you really identified, think, like there's five elements ⁓ that play, you know, that create this this Venn diagram of, you know, the uniqueness or the secret sauce of camp. And I think that that's what, you know, when you look at what the perspective that we're trying to bring in our work at Z3 from that, from that sense is really, you know, there's the agency, the choice, right? The immersiveness, the primacy.
and the sense of collective, you know, identity and then expressing your true self. And that interacts both with the agency of choice and agency of, you know, know, buy-in, also self-expression. What's interesting, I think, you know, as an Israeli on this call, and Shelley as well, but I'm saying from, know, from how I experience this is that, you know, ⁓ that reality is very, very much missing in the day-to-day in the American context, which is why Camp is so, of course, powerful.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (13:51)
Absolutely.
Amitai Fraiman (13:52)
And then, but for Israelis, as Shelley said, which is so, it's amazing, is I would actually focus on like choice in relation to the rest of that. Because while in Israel, maybe we have sovereignty, we have agency, have, know, immersiveness and all that stuff. There's no choice, right? And then you come to a place and you're like, wait, wait, you all chose to be here? You all want this? This is, you know, yeah.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (14:13)
Yeah, that's the biggest aha moment I think for everybody
is that you choose to be Jewish and to enact your Judaism in this way is really very empowering in many ways because I don't think I am not a believer that in Israel there's no choice, even though I know that legally there are a few quite a few fundamental things that we cannot choose. But there is actually a lot of plurality of expression of Judaism and Jewish life in Israel. Yet the perception is
Amitai Fraiman (14:39)
Yeah, but that's the thing.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (14:42)
I am this something that's being dictated to me. ⁓ And you have to go and have that moratorium that Michael was describing a camp. Also, Israelis typically if we speak about Shlichem for a minute who come to camp and not teens, they're after an extreme collective experience of, you know, serving their country. And then they come to this choice again, and they chose to do this instead of something else. They come to this, you know,
Amitai Fraiman (14:45)
Yes.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (15:10)
fairground, don't know, Luna Park, you know, a big of choice. And it's incredible.
Amitai Fraiman (15:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is incredible. I agree that in Israel there is more choice of expression of Judaism, but that's exactly the thing. It's still very much bounded within the confines of Judaism. You can't escape it. And I think it's interesting. mean, you Hartman, they have this thing, right? I think David Hartman said, right, in Israel, we're the chosen people, and in America, it's the choosing people. And I think that actually in Hebrew, and I've used this in another episode, I don't think it's, can't possibly be like I'm the first person to think about this. It really isn't, but I haven't heard it elsewhere.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (15:26)
Yeah, yeah.
Ha ha.
Amitai Fraiman (15:46)
for now. But I think we actually mistranslate in Hebrew the chosen element, the nivchar, right? We use it as like elite, right? But I think it's actually like nivchar as savil, it's passive. The choice is made for us, right? Like we have no choice as opposed to, you know, someone who chooses actively, boher et ha nivchar, you don't have it, you know what mean? So it's like, yes, there's an element of excellence, but that lack of choice, I think, and that interaction between these two is something that's quite powerful and it plays along other lines and other themes I think are...
are very meaningful. I think we started here very interestingly here to start touching upon different themes. if we can focus for a second on the interaction, there's going to be in any given setting of this, right? Israelis come in, no matter how many times they, well, the camp does it, some Israelis repeat, but there's always that moment of the beginning of the first kind of interaction. So maybe we can share with us, what does that look like? What does that, know,
Is there, is it smooth? Is there scratchiness? Is there, know, kind of what, is that interaction to kind of see through that? What are the potential breakdowns, but also more importantly, what is the gift of that interaction?
Michael Schlank (16:55)
⁓ so I'll start, guess, a little bit the right, both of those things are correct. It's both very smooth and euphoric and also scratchy. ⁓ and I think that is, ⁓ indicative of the relationship between the diaspora and Israel in general. Right. can tell you about the fact that we, I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about this, but you know, our Israeli, our, our shrieking were delayed in our agency. We're blessed to have.
nearly 300, almost 300 Israeli campers, Mamash Israelis, come from Israel to America for camp, and they were delayed by eight days. And ⁓ so that absence sort of delayed that moment in which everyone got there. And what's interesting about that is often in a typical year, although I don't know what a typical year is, but in a somewhat typical year, ⁓ everyone gets there at the same time.
In this case, that didn't happen. All the Israelis came on the eighth day. There's probably a Devora Torah there. Maybe it'll be for next week. And the joy that we saw, the real ticker tape parade that happened for these Israelis getting off the bus with the music blaring and the flags flying and the tears coming down people's ⁓ cheeks, real, real emotion was amazing. ⁓ And there's a honeymoon period there. It lasts about an hour.
Amitai Fraiman (17:56)
of
Michael Schlank (18:20)
⁓ and then you have to do life checks and then you have to figure out why I'm in the wrong bunk and then all of those things happen and in many ways I am I'm really grateful for the scratchy parts because the scratchy parts I like that term if I might borrow that if you don't having time the scratchy parts are how we get to know and live with each other because when you get to know and live with your family it's not all ticker tape parades and music and waving flags, right?
Amitai Fraiman (18:38)
at that moment.
Michael Schlank (18:48)
You get to know people, who they are and how they live and all of those things. And so I actually embraced the scratchy parts and I encourage our staff to get to know Israelis as people because they're not some caricature ⁓ of a young person holding a gun at a checkpoint or ⁓ selling shawarma on the side of ⁓ right? They're people. And so let's get to know those people in their fullness and vice versa.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (19:08)
Thank you.
Michael Schlank (19:17)
So I love the scratchy parts because the scratchy parts are what make us real and make us real family.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (19:26)
So I think there's, ⁓ it's really interesting because it is a choosing experience. So from the perspective of, of Shlichim, I think there's a lot of preparation that happens before this sort of leads to a very, you know, professional meetup at camp that starts before, you know, the, camp has actually come and then there's, you know, a very professional interaction, you know, in those roles. I think it's different when you bring teens like Michael.
Amitai Fraiman (19:26)
Yeah, sure.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (19:53)
just described. When we bring teens to camp, it's an extremely authentic experience. Israeli teens are, at least, you know, the ones that we're bringing, which are, you know, teens through the Campus Together program that are either from the Western Negev area or from the Northern Confrontation Line. This is for them, you know, ⁓ this coveted vacation that they were dreaming about that they would never have access to because usually people on Israel's geographic and social periphery are not.
entitled, they don't get the opportunity to come to camp in the United States. And there's like a huge level of that thrill of, ⁓ know, my God, I'm in this camp. And then I think it takes 24 hours in jet lag for them to be teens again. And it's a very, very authentic experience. So everything about them as teenagers just comes out. So it doesn't matter that there is radius or they've had suffered trauma or that they've been displaced from their homes.
they're still teenagers and they complain about the food and they don't like who they bunked with and now this activity is boring and why can't I wear this type of outerwear or all these sort of things and it's very, very authentic. The magic happens, I think, when you allow them to actually interact in a thoughtful way and then release them also to the void of informal conversations.
What we found in what we've done last year and also in the winter session is that teen Israelis don't hold back. So what you said, Michael, about the bubble, they burst the bubble. ⁓ And that's a risk that camps take when they take Israeli teens. They do not tend to be shy. ⁓ Most of them have no reservations about talking about what they've gone through in many a detail. ⁓ They are not, you know, if...
Camp directors are expecting very quiet, traumatized young people. No, they are not. ⁓ And in that sense, they inspire very deep conversations that Amitai, with your endeavor in Z3, you're trying to spark, and they happen organically through the teens. And they put everything on the table. They ask very difficult questions about camp as well. So as I said, there's a collective experience, but then they will say, but why do you pray this way? And didn't you hear that this is not the way to say the Kaddish?
Has no one told you this is not the way, you know, to say birkat hamazon? Like it's very, very authentic. They participate and they shift the collective in every direction. I think it's beautiful. It's actually very, very, it's very welcomed by both ends. For us professionals, this is like a stressful, very scratchy moment to say, you know, how much are we going to allow this? Do we need to control this? Should we set some ground rules? Maybe we should separate them a little bit, but it works.
it works because they're just themselves. They come and they are.
Amitai Fraiman (22:55)
Yeah. So I mean.
Michael Schlank (22:57)
Yeah, I think leaning
into letting them be themselves, it's interesting you said about the professional piece. When our Israeli staff come, they come and they go through the professional training and then they are just like any other 19 or 20, 21 year old. Some of them are great counselors, some of them are great ceramics folks, some of them are terrible. And my favorite is when I hear people talking about them that way, good, or different, but not as the Israelis, which is by the way, a challenge that we have.
When you have a large group of people who are other, ⁓ and even though we're all Jewish, they're other, there's a language, there's culture, the idea of not holding back is, know, mamash on that's for sure, as they say. Not holding back is very different. Even interactions between professionals, you know, I think I never served in Tzahal but it's clear to me that the way that a 20-year-old is comfortable speaking to an American supervisor is very different than many of our 20-year-olds are.
are comfortable speaking to their supervisors. And that's part of the culture of Tzahal, of questioning authority. That becomes sometimes a really scratchy point, like who are you talking to and why are you talking to me that way? And I think that's the beauty of the mosaic of Jewish life. And so we try to embrace it as much as we can, although sometimes it is a little bit of a rock and a shoe.
Amitai Fraiman (24:20)
Yeah, so there's something that you said there, Michael, and know, Shelley alluded to it earlier also, but in terms of like this, this just adds another layer there, right? This is probably the first time that American Jews are like a majority as Jews, and for Israelis, that they're like a minority as Jews. Yes, everybody's Jewish, but still, that dynamic already creates something that is not, you know, it's not familiar for any side of it, which adds another kind of interesting component of people, you know, might not feel like they're a...
Dr. Shelley Kedar (24:35)
Mm-hmm.
Amitai Fraiman (24:47)
you a bite because they're like, wait, oh, there's other, know, and so they're like, wait, I am the ballet, you know, like this kind of mixed, mixed reality for a second.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (24:53)
Yeah, and camps
are, you know, they have very deep traditions. ⁓ In camp staff, camp directors, camp cooks, you know, they know camp through and through. And then comes, you know, this 20, 21 year old or even 13 or 14 year old and says, no, that's not the way to do things. without much, yeah, and that, I think that stirs up things also in a humbling way for the Israelis who say, goodness.
Amitai Fraiman (25:12)
Yeah.
Michael Schlank (25:13)
Right, right, right.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (25:21)
There's actually whole world out there. As I said, know, it opens the perspective. And ⁓ I think that also causes some confrontation. know, one of the sentences that is very difficult in Shlichut in general, for us to hear, can say as a veteran Shlichut how many times, is we don't do things this way over here. You know, in the Israeli ear, this sounds to me like an invitation to rebel. But that's not what you mean when you say it. You actually mean we actually don't do things this way over here.
Amitai Fraiman (25:44)
Yeah.
Michael Schlank (25:45)
That's right. Right.
We're serious about that. This is not a shock. We're not negotiating about that. Right. I will tell you that on a more serious note, I could, know, last summer, going back to last summer, we learned a lot of lessons from last summer. Last summer, many of my staff had visited Israel after October 7th. I had been there four times since October 7th. And I thought
Dr. Shelley Kedar (25:52)
Yeah, you're not inviting me to make change. Yeah.
Michael Schlank (26:11)
deep connections personally to the Neutra family. We felt like we really understood the experience. Humbly, we were unbelievably wrong. Because when the Israelis, and we learn, we're very different now, I think, when the Israeli staff and campers came ⁓ to camp last summer, the Khatufim experience, the hostage experience was ever-present, ongoing, and always in their lives. And we made some really bad mistakes.
⁓ with things that we did out of good attention, out of good will, ⁓ trying to do a program and stepping in it or putting up a Khatufim, ⁓ a hostage ⁓ display and then taking it down. You don't do that in Israel. You don't take them down, right? And we did, to talk about culture, well, we don't do that here. Once Yom Yisrael is over, we take the Yom Yisrael stuff down. Once...
Well, you don't take that down without telling us first. And so we learned a lot about, I learned personally about how much I didn't know. And it didn't strike me until I was back in Israel again with my family this year. And I looked around and I said, oh, I understand that these people, these Israelis on every corner and every point, mean, in front of my personal house, I've been a poster of Omer Neutra for 20, how many months now, right?
Dr. Shelley Kedar (27:11)
in it.
Michael Schlank (27:39)
But for the rest of the world, mean, even for us, was a thing, but it wasn't the only thing. As important as it was, the brace that I wear and the dog tags that everybody wears. We learned very much that this has become part of the DNA of Israelis, and I hate to generalize about Israelis in general, but I've had enough time to spend enough folks, time with enough folks. And so we as Americans learned an important lesson, American Jews who deeply love and care about the land, that we are not Israelis.
And we were told that quite rightly, very clearly in the experiences that we had. And I felt that was a great experience for our adult staff and for our campers and everyone involved to understand that that lesson was painful and hard, but important.
Amitai Fraiman (28:24)
Yeah. So, I mean, that raises a question. mean, certainly there is, we're in a moment, it's like Michael said before, what's normal? I don't since 2019, nothing has been normal, I'd say. But, you know, the reality has shifted very dramatically over the past couple of years in terms of the relationship between, you know, mean, what's going on in Israel, of course, has an impact. You know, there's this ongoing trend of worry around the relationship between American Jewry and Israel. You can put that, that's, we can explore that conversation on a bigger kind of...
uh, scale as well. But I think in the camp setting, I'm curious to hear, you know, how, how this, know, you started teasing this a little bit, Michael and Shelley, I'm sure that in the prep side of things, things are different as well. And how, how has October 7th, um, impacted it, you know, on a, on a deeper level? There's a, there's a, there's a things on the surface, of course, of behaviors and whatnot, the trauma, the trauma, but I'm sure there's more than that. And the reason I'm asking is because there's something that I'm seeing that, that I'm always trying to be mindful of, um, is that
You know, in this relationship, right, it's very, very easy, and this comes from like the work that I do on a regular basis, but certainly the both of you as well, is how do you, to the extent it's possible, and it's not always gonna be this way, but how do you keep this relationship egalitarian? Because when you bring in people from a very, very extreme component, you know, that can really tip the scales, but the purpose isn't to be a rehab for the Israeli teens or the shlichim.
It's not, know, and, they're also not there as props for the American kids. So how do you kind of think about that and in particular in light of this moment?
Dr. Shelley Kedar (29:59)
At least from my perspective, think the question is, are we able at camp to identify the shared values that we hold and be egalitarian around them, as opposed to the context that October 7th has caused both in Israel and in North America, because the issue of Israel hatred and anti-Semitism and violence that is erupting in America is very, very concerning.
also to the staff and the teens that we're meeting from the American side. So I think there's a huge question about what are the shared values that we hold together and can we rally and be egalitarian around them? And Israel as a Jewish value ⁓ is something that I feel we still have work to rally around, ⁓ even the love of Zion or Zionism as a...
as a value ⁓ and not just a political stance pro or against something is something that ⁓ is questioned. Can we rally around it? ⁓ And that's where the egalitarianism sort of escapes. From my perspective, what identifies Israeli society after October 7th, especially the ones that we see and we send over to United States camps is that they wear their pain on their sleeve, as you say.
And they literally do. They have a sticker and they have a pin and they have this, you know, what you said, Michael, really hurt home because I'm thinking about all the stickers everywhere and nobody's going to remove them for years to come. And that's something that's very, very prominent. That's something that we live with as a reality. So the pain is worn on the sleeve, which makes, you know, everything very exposed. ⁓ But there's also pain on the other side, you know, on the American side, people who are choosing to come to Jewish camp to be part of the collective who are making a statement.
to their friends at home, this is what I'm doing this summer, or this is where I'm working this summer, you know, for the professional stuff. So I think our work as professionals, as educators is really defined and articulate and also be very explicit about the values that we share together, even if we have different viewpoints on these values and holding them together ⁓ to form this community and collective the camp is supposed to generate. It's very, very easy to avoid.
⁓ You know, difficult questions at camp. You have a perfect setup. There's young people, sun usually, ⁓ food is okay. There are physical activities, right? So we can, yeah, exactly. So we can somewhat maybe avoid Jewish values, but that's not what campus for. And I think most camps do a fantastic job in actually putting these issues front and center. Obviously age appropriately. ⁓
Amitai Fraiman (32:34)
You were adults.
Michael Schlank (32:35)
Right.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (32:51)
but really saying this is what we need to be rallying around now as a community. This is how we take care of each other because of everybody's pain and also because of, you know, we don't want to be bound by just grief and trauma and disaster. That's not what our people is about. This is not what peoplehood is about.
Michael Schlank (33:09)
Thanks.
Yeah, I often I said to our staff and I wrote that Israel is not October 7th. It is part of October 7th, but it is not it is not the only defining moment. It's a defining moment, but it's not the definition of the country. I will say, Shelley, that one of the things that I see from our side ⁓ is that it has crystallized for many people the importance of Israel and Zion in their lives. And so I actually can say and again, it's you you have the lens from which you
which you view the world and I view it through the world of the people that I come in contact with. Thousands of them, but certainly not a complete picture. It has crystallized, it has forced us. Last year we were in many ways ⁓ compelled to define who we were when it comes to that. In writing, wrote, myself and my executive director wrote a piece about what it means to be a Zionist camp. We stood in front of the thousands of staff and said, this is who we are, these are our values.
We can argue about the government and all, but there's some things that are not for debate, and I think that's okay. ⁓ And if that doesn't fit for you, ⁓ this might not be the right collective for you, because not every collective is correct for everybody. And I think for many of our staff, it created this real desire and ⁓ call to action to redefine themselves publicly, to take a stand. Because if you were quiet in North America in America,
Acquiescence was, ⁓ you in a place in which you were now complicit. And so you really had to choose which side of the encampments are you on? Are you inside the tent or you're outside the tent, both figuratively and literally? And what I saw for many of our staff, who I've known for a number of years now, who I didn't know where they stood, right? camped, Israel was a thing, it a day and it was fun and nice, but they were forced to...
Dr. Shelley Kedar (34:58)
Yeah.
Michael Schlank (35:11)
pick a side, and thank God, most of them picked the side that we all agree with, right? ⁓ And that didn't mean they picked the side of the government, they meant they picked the side of Israel as a people, as our family. And so I think that was really heartening for me as a professional, as a leader of an organization. And I also saw many of our families reaching out to us who hadn't been in contact with us in many, many years to say, my only real experience was the trip I went on to...
And in Israel, when I was 18 years old and now I'm 27 or I'm 47, my only experience was meeting an Israeli and I need to connect to those people again and you're the way we're going to do it. How do we do that? And we did a whole bunch of things around that. And so I thought for me, Dan Senor said something in a podcast a couple of months ago, which I happened to agree with. And that is I'm less worried about Israel. I am more worried about the American diaspora.
I am not worried about the American diaspora's connection to Israel. think that has been, ⁓ there's a lot of noise around that. think the large majority of Jews are Zionist, right? That's what's the pupil, 89 or 90 % of those folks are Zionist. ⁓ I'm concerned about those other 10%. ⁓ So that's not concerning to me. I'm concerned about other things about Jewish life, but what I've seen here in our little corner of the world is that this experience has crystallized for many people the import.
of Israel and Hamas did a lot of things, a lot of awful, terrible, tragic, horrific things. But one of the things it did do in Ato-Israel was force people to pick a side. ⁓ And I think that that was something that hasn't happened our generations, as I look at this on these screens, we didn't have to pick sides. We had the luxury, in many ways, and certainly in America, of being wishy-washy about what side that you were on.
And that, October 7th, forced us to do that. And thank God, most of our folks that we deal with chose the side that, you know, I like to the good guys, right, are on the right side. It doesn't mean that you're on side of the government or on the side of the way a war was being conducted, not whatever that might be, but you're on the side of Israel as the eternal country of the Jewish people and Zionism as being inextricably linked to Jewish people.
Amitai Fraiman (37:32)
So I appreciate that and something that Shelley said and I want to take a step further into this. There's not to presume a shared or egalitarian ⁓ sentiment around context and realities, but much more around values. And even then there's going to be scratches. And what Michael's describing really is that there is a post October 7th at least, there's been some kind of ⁓ clarifying moment in which
the set of values and core beliefs have been identified in a clearer way, I guess. And so my question then is within that two sides of that. Number one is I can't imagine, mean, first of all, in our neck of the woods, I know that what Michael is describing, what Shailesh is describing isn't always the case or some camps that have a little bit more of a different stance, different position.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (38:23)
Thank you.
Amitai Fraiman (38:31)
And so I know that on the camping landscape, there's a difference. But I imagine also internally, there's some differences. So on the one hand, how do we allow for that to flourish? Not for the sake of watering down or the superficial sense of conversation, but for real, meaningful, and purposeful, and intentional differences.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (38:34)
Yeah.
Amitai Fraiman (38:57)
so that we don't fall into this group think, uniformity kind of thing. And the reason I'm asking this is because fundamentally, think that with all the grounding context that you guys list in the beginning, the immersiveness, the agency, all that stuff, ⁓ there can be ⁓ an attempt to push it also to unify thinking. But I think that, Daphke, the differences is what makes within that immersiveness.
there's still room for the difference, actually makes it more powerful. So I'm curious again from, know, on the camp side and the shtichim side, how do you A, create that space of difference and also how do you ⁓ avoid, ⁓ you know, so both sides of, I guess, of the dangers of that, right? The too many opposing views and...
Dr. Shelley Kedar (39:36)
Thank
Yeah,
I want to suggest that the issue is not, you know, a lack of difference, but really a fear of conducting a conversation that could be slightly controversial or ⁓ creating discomfort or that, ⁓ you know, forces one to make a statement or think about where they stand, which is something that we've been avoiding quite religiously.
Amitai Fraiman (40:12)
Mm.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (40:14)
for a time, ⁓ for ⁓ a great fear of uniformity. But we took it really, I think, to a very extreme in the sense that you can't make a stand about anything. If you make a stand, then you're only identified with one side of the political map that know how to stand up, which is ridiculous. I think that, Michael, you spoke about the safe spaces, et cetera. And I think that's
That notion has crippled a lot of very important conversations that young people should be having. Definitely a camp where they can explore and not be, you know, punished or ⁓ suffer any social cost with to their opinions because they're among their friends. And when there is no social media, which is so important, we haven't mentioned social media here at all, the camp is social media less, which means that you can actually voice an opinion without having 50, 100.
you know, a thousand people shouting back at you that you don't know who they are in the void of the internet. That's incredible. So I think it's actually, it's our obligation to have uncomfortable and serious conversations because camp allows it. And also it's the type of environment where you have the conversation and you don't just leave the room and go home. You leave the room and then you go to the hadar ojal, you go to the dining room, you have whatever it is that you feed.
the kids over there. I'm not sure. And then you, you know, you have your rest time. No, no, it's I know, I know, for some reason, it's that was the traumatic piece for me at camp. And then the it's fair. And then and then you have rest and like, there's a there's a lot of time to process a difficult conversation. There's a lot of time to process an argument. It's like a marriage in the good sense of it is that people don't just slam the door and say, that's it. I'm not talking to you anymore. You're still living together.
Michael Schlank (41:46)
It's a lot of food comments, Shelley. A lot of food comments.
It's fair, it's fair.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (42:11)
And I think educationally, Amitai, I'm actually not afraid of creating difference. I'm afraid of allowing indifference just for the sake of, you the fear of, my God, we will create uniformity. when a camp says, these are the values that I stand by, they are defining the poles that hold the tent. They're not defining the tent. They're saying these are our poles. It's a very big tent in a camp. You can stand here, you can stand there, you can sit anywhere.
But just know that these are the polls that hold us. That's also, I don't think that's, ⁓ you know, enforcing something or coercing people into opinion. ⁓ It's now fine where you stand in relation to, you know, to these polls. There's too much fear around having deep conversations. And if we've learned anything about today's young people, they're better than that. They're capable. They think. And they want to express themselves, actually verbally and not through their
know, fingers and typing with words. And we should allow them that skill.
Michael Schlank (43:18)
think you're right, Shelley. And I think, you my sister said something to me when my father passed away, having some difficult times. She said, you know, people don't, in crisis, people don't get, they're not different. They're just more of themselves. Right. And I think very much that's what's going on. We're more of ourselves. And I think Shelley's right. I think by defining who you are, you're in essence inviting a conversation because I'm not, if I'm something and I'm not something else, right. If I'm nothing, then there's no real conversation to have. And so,
The way we think about these things is developmentally appropriate, right? Different from a second grader to a 15 year old. But we are a very open and encouraged conversation by the way we have Israelis, so you can't stop that, right? So they're going to have those conversations. Yeah, they don't even speak English. Right, right. ⁓ And so we welcome those conversations and we want people to have difficult, comfortably uncomfortable as I like to say, right? Being comfortably uncomfortable at those conversations.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (44:02)
And they don't even speak good English. That's the shocking fact about it.
Michael Schlank (44:15)
We are a people of the book and a people who argue across generations, right? And so we want to do that. And I think in many ways we knew by making a stand that we were opening ourselves for those conversations. Because by the way, there were some alumni who said, not for us anymore. Because I didn't know you believed in that, right? And so now, okay, we can have that conversation. But this is kind of where we believe as a community. That doesn't mean that you...
that if you want to be still connected to community, that's okay, but here's where we stand. And we do encourage ⁓ through work with Sachnut and iCenter and work that we're doing with Z3 to have difficult conversations, but those difficult conversations have to happen ⁓ with the grounding of fact, with the grounding of values, with the grounding of ethics. ⁓ Otherwise, they're meaningless. They're just TikTok conversations. We want to avoid the TikTok conversations.
Here are the things that we know are facts. Here are the things we know that we believe and that why we believe them that are informed by facts. Now go at it. Have those conversations with each other informally, formally. If you need some help, let us know. Listen, we had a staff member raise their hand. I was told in one of our orientations that after they heard what was going on and said, this place is not for me. And you know what? That's great. Because in many ways we actually did our job, which is we defined something and someone couldn't stomach being in a Zionist space. Great.
then that's probably not the right place for you. Better that you should know that at the outset, then you should find that out two weeks in. But for most people, this is a place in which they can be comfortably uncomfortable and have those conversations in a socially and psychologically safe place, right? Emotionally, I'm sorry, emotionally and psychologically safe place.
Amitai Fraiman (46:00)
So is this something that you feel has been, I generally speaking, I imagine that, I don't know, I'll just ask. Has this like focused on this ⁓ comfortably uncomfortable accelerated since 10/7?
Michael Schlank (46:16)
So I'm a little bit removed from the day to day, right? And so I want to be honest about that. And then maybe if you had one of my camp directors or someone else, but I think I have my finger on the pulse enough. You know, honestly, what most people want to do when they come to camp, they want to be in community with each other. They want to have fun. They want to learn. They want to develop lifelong friendships. And so most teenagers don't seek out to have these ongoing difficult conversations.
on a daily basis, because they really just want to hang out with each other for a lot, and young people also, and staff. So I think that's the overarching thing. I don't want to overplay this, that we spend all day in chevrutah talking about whether or not the government should fall or not fall, or what does it really mean that Netanyahu is in Washington. That doesn't happen a lot. It happens sometimes, but I think...
it happens in ways that are comfortable because we do all the other things, which is to make them socially connected and have an environment that in those conversations organically happen amongst and between each other in safe spaces. And I don't mean safe spaces in the horrible way that they've developed in American terms, but in a place where you can disagree with somebody and not feel like you're going to be socialized. So I think it happens. And I think sometimes it happens meaningfully. I want to say one last thing and then I...
We had this beautiful conversation. had one of our staff members, his name is Etan Greenberg. He spoke in front of the entire Staff at Staff Week about his friend, Uri Derby, who had been killed ⁓ in Gaza. And he spoke in front of 500 people. This is a 21-year-old speaking in front of largely other 21-year-olds powerfully about what it meant for his friend to lose his friend. wasn't about it happened in Gaza, but it wasn't about the politics. It was just about
introducing all of us to Uri and I wear Uri's band this summer and I thought that was such a meaningful experience for everyone to know that Eytan was someone who they could understand what does it really mean when 21 year olds go to war. And then they went to play tennis, right, on Sunday. And so I think those experiences are the secret sauce, if I want to go back to what you said, right? So it's not about having chevrutah or having chinuch always talking about, it's about allowing people...
to feel like this is a space in which we can have those difficult conversations ⁓ whenever they happen organically.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (48:40)
Yeah, I think there's an educational opportunity ⁓ in seizing the moment of the depth that we discover in young people and their, you know, a little bit of their quest to ⁓ not be chat GPT or AI, you know, reverberating machines when they come to camp and they disconnect from their mobile phones. And it's an opportunity that, you know, great
⁓ scholars like Jonathan Hyde speaks about, know, in great lengths, and we're giving them that opportunity. I sort of feel it is our obligation to enable them to have, to engage in dialogue. even, respectfully, Michael, even the term difficult conversations, I don't know. Having a conversation is difficult. This is difficult now. I have to listen to you, I have to understand what you're saying.
I have to not speak when you're speaking. Like there's a lot of skill in it. And camp is an incredible opportunity psychologically and developmentally to disconnect young people from their phones because they chose to do it. It's not even, you know, it's not a punishment. They chose to come to camp. They chose to be part of a collective. They chose to, you know, to be part of this experience.
And I feel educationally we need to seize that moment. And by the way, the conversations don't only have to be about Jewish life in Israel. There's a lot of things that teens want to talk about and that they can only talk about a camp. And I feel that that needs to feed into, you know, the training that we give and also even more so to the vision and the impact that we expect of camps. Because camps are really very impactful experiences. You will not find a lot of
you know, people in leadership positions in the United States, in any Jewish institution, who cannot tell you about their formative experience at camp. ⁓ And that's, they won't tell you about their bar mitzvah, but they will tell you which camp they went to. So it's really a very, very meaningful experience and it's an opportunity that has to be seized educationally. Otherwise, we're, you know, we're just giving it away. Chaval. And I don't think we're doing it, by the way. I don't think that we're giving it away, but I think we can do better.
Michael Schlank (50:37)
you
Amitai Fraiman (50:52)
So I have one, ⁓ just I wanna close up on this part of it and then I wanna see what else we can unpack in this conversation. So I think, I mean, Michael, alluded to this, Shelley, you alluded to this as well. This neurosis of like a decline in relationship or caring or centering, this is like, I'd say outside the camp or in general, this is a conversation we have where we're professionals in many, many, many, many settings where it's like, this and what we're doing.
So first of all, from your perspective, is that correct? If it's correct, then what are we doing? If it's incorrect, then where's the gap? Where's the hype coming from?
Dr. Shelley Kedar (51:34)
You know, there's an Israeli song that not every year can be, know, lo kol yom yom huledet, you know, not every day can be summer camp. ⁓ So I think that the notion of caring ⁓ is not something that we should be bothered with, especially after October 7th. We've seen a lot of caring that is ongoing as well on the emotional level. ⁓ I think the notion of closeness, how, you know, close I feel.
Michael Schlank (51:35)
So go ahead, Shelley.
Amitai Fraiman (51:40)
Yeah.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (52:01)
to the Jewish people, to Jewish peoplehood, to community, to Jewish life, to Israel is also something that has been somewhat intensifying after October 7th. So, but the camp is not real world. It's not supposed to be the real world. It's a disconnect. It's an immersive experience that allows you to just be in that moment. And it ends. The last day of camp is a devastating day, right?
You go home, you cry. It's really, it's a sad day. So ⁓ camps have a wonderful opportunity to impact young people at a very important stage of their lives for a very important period of time. It's not a short, you know, five day experience. It's a weeks long, you know, experience and there's a lot in it. ⁓ And I feel that, that, you know, investment in camp and in the content in camps could really impact the entire Jewish community. it's
its ability to engage in conversation about anything that matters. Not necessarily everything that's difficult, but everything that matters.
Michael Schlank (53:09)
I think, Shelley, think you're right about the limited time, but I do think camps have something to teach the rest of the world about how to engage with each other, right? About how to engage with each other authentically and meaningfully. ⁓ I think you're right that in shared space, yeah. Right.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (53:23)
and share space. know, Michael, one of the things they can does is to share space. You have to bunk with people.
You have to interact with them. It's a wonderful social experience.
Michael Schlank (53:34)
and you take away the phones and those are all, that's true. And you've mentioned that a number of times. think that is, that is, it's almost, know, for someone who does the work I do, it's almost, it's it's a given, right? We know that's the case. And so we don't think about it as much as folks on the outside. is a thing to watch a thousand young people walking around without their phones, right? No, no connection to that. But I, but I also think what we've seen, what we think that camp does is, you know, talk about closeness and, and, and feelings, but I think that what camp does is it creates, you know,
an authentic experience in an inauthentic way, right? There's an inauthentic setting about it, but you create an authentic connection because what we know is when our young people go to Israel on birthright, one of the things they do is they seek out their counselors, right? Or when they go to Israel 10 years after their first, they seek out their counselor. those are authentic experiences. And I think the investment and I, know, a little bit of a pitch here, right? The investment in camp and the investment in what happens after camp.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (54:21)
Yeah.
Michael Schlank (54:33)
Because I think we have this opportunity, this inflection point where these kids are primed. It's almost like we think about when the kids come back from gap years in Israel, in America, they're on fire, they say. And sometimes we waste that fire. I think we have an opportunity to think about as a community, what do we do with this amazing connection, these thousands and thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of people who made this connection? How do we leverage that in September, October, November, December?
And not just hope that they'll come back, because sometimes they don't. And those relationships need to be leveraged. And what are the lessons that we learn? I'd like to see more work done intentionally about how to do that. Jack Wertheimer wrote a beautiful book, right, in the last chapter. I remember it was about how important camp was. I'd like to see us with more ⁓ dedicated work to think about how do we take the lessons that happen inside of a camp setting ⁓ and make them applicable to a more authentic life,
Jewish connection between Israel and America and also what about about what happens in Israel and in America or North America in general.
Amitai Fraiman (55:42)
So you both teed us up, we're coming up on time, this is perfect, the perfect place for the last, this is the question, the last question. ⁓ Michael, start talking about this, but I'm gonna show you, you were already leading us in this direction, so I'll let you start. But if you have to think about it, redesign or improve or add, camp experience is clearly and scientifically proven to be highly impactful, ⁓ but both of you kept on saying, and there's more, and there's more. So what is something that you would do?
that to add to the experience, improve it, sharpen it a little bit from your perspective.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (56:18)
Wow. So first of all, I'm humbled to speak about anything in the camp world because it is ⁓ an incredible phenomena. You this is an industry that's been going on for decades and it's highly successful. ⁓ On the one end, think camp needs to be made and I do join you in your pitch, Michael, it needs to be made accessible ⁓ to as many of young people who might choose this experience as possible. Because today, we're looking about
when we're looking around the opportunities that people have to experience Jewish life and to actually explore their Jewish identity and their connection to Israel, ⁓ the offering of camp is one of the most meaningful opportunities out there that is actually applicable to all sorts of Jews of all kinds and all colors and all denominations and all affiliations and questions. Jews of all questions can come to camp. And I think that's something that needs to be an emphasis.
The second is this element of mifgash, of Israelis at camp. We have a beautiful tradition of bringing Israelis to work at camps and be adults that work at camp. are developing and heightening the number of, increasing incredibly the number of Israelis that actually come to participate at camp. And that changes the dynamics. ⁓ And just from speaking, now that we speak about volumes of almost a thousand a year.
There needs to be best practices to be drawn from there. We need to work better at integration, allowing these conversations that we were speaking about to actually happen, ⁓ to work with our staff to actually be able to facilitate a lot of these things and to see Israelis, just as you said, also Amitai, not as a relic or a program that has come to entertain us as a camp, but as participants because...
Our collective is made up of many types of Jews and a very large Jewish community lives in Israel. ⁓ And thirdly, I would also speak about the global element. There are very few camps who are able ⁓ to technically, not maybe necessarily educationally, to incorporate Jews from other countries in their camps. Camp is a beautiful environment to generate peoplehood. ⁓ And we know that language is not a barrier.
Nobody speaks English well ever and it still works. And I think we need to think about that as leaders of the Jewish community. How do we create a people who have experienced a camp that incorporates and allows the opportunity for everybody to feel they're part of a collective that is called Camp, I don't know, NJY, whatever. ⁓ Whatever camp name that I can plug in and offend here on this podcast, chas v'chalilah, all camps are great. So Camp Shelley.
⁓ the peoplehood camp that invites and makes sure that there's a good representation and an opportunity for conversation to go swimming with, not, to defy curfew with, ⁓ to do things that you're not supposed to be doing at the dining room with, and also to have a conversation with the Jewish people. I think that's the direction to be looking forward.
Michael Schlank (59:34)
I mean, I think we're pretty lucky and blessed in our programs. have Jews from Argentina and London and Mexico and France. as I'm walking around, the thing that I get the most proud of is when I see in front of the office, five young people, all from different countries, all from different walks of life, but all sharing their Jewish peoplehood and all having one thing in common. They're standing in front of a...
of an office waiting for their mail or their Oreos, whatever that might be. And the fact that one of, yeah, whatever that might be. And it's beautiful. And so we do a little bit of it, or maybe a lot of it, but we could do more. I have one thought. It's been a big idea I've had for a little bit. And I think that we can extend this idea of immersive experiences to families. We do a little bit. We do some fair amount of family camps in our organization.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (1:00:05)
They're aureus probably.
Michael Schlank (1:00:30)
with the right funding, I would love to see that same experience that those teenagers have for whole families to get to spend that time together. Maybe not to a month because we want everyone to still talk to each other at the end. ⁓ it would be amazing to have, know, yeah, exactly, well, that's another podcast, To have a real family camp in which Israelis and Americans spend time either in America or in Israel.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (1:00:45)
Maybe people can switch families when they join your camp.
Yeah, sorry.
Michael Schlank (1:00:59)
together with each other because I think, you know, I'll end with, it's a little bit of a sad story, but I think it actually speaks to, it helped me understand a little bit. was talking to one of the Rosh Bahanei, a woman I've known for a long time, and she said to me, talking about her experience during the Iran, the 12-day war, which is I guess we call it now the 12-day war, and she's talking about holding her child with a bottle of water and a phone, a three-year-old.
and making sure that she can touch the other two children so that if God forbid the missile hits, that she'll be able to get them out of the rubble, right? And I thought to myself, that's both terrible, but also really as a parent, I don't need to hear any more about her life. I really get all of the things that she was going through for those 12 days, or at least enough. ⁓ And then we talked about what it's like to have ice cream and all. And I think if more adults got to experience that familial familiarity, say that twice.
⁓ it'd be really meaningful. And so I think that we can replicate that immersive experience over a week or 10 days ⁓ in either one or both of our countries. And if we developed these ongoing relationships with family units, and then we have sister cities and those are great, but the idea of having these family units from places to me would be really meaningful. And Amitai, you like to dream big and...
I sort of took you up on thinking about that. And we have these wonderful partnerships. Sachnut is this amazing, amazing partner that we've had for so many years. And I'd love for us to start to think about how to do things in ways that we haven't in the past, because now is the time to do that.
Amitai Fraiman (1:02:42)
So thinking big, think is a hallmark of the Jewish spirit and the Zionist kind of ethos of doing big and making things happen. know, on this, on that note, I want to thank you both very, very much for joining us. I know you both are, this is like the peak season for both of you in different ways. And for me, it's a little bit easier because our camps or whatever, but thank you, b'emet. Yeah. Thank you for this ⁓ meaningful conversation, really this exploration of the magic of camp and what happens in it. So.
Dr. Shelley Kedar (1:03:03)
You're welcome.
Michael Schlank (1:03:07)
You're welcome.
Amitai Fraiman (1:03:12)
I really appreciate your insight.
