LGBTQ+ Jews After October 7—The Z3 Podcast
How are LGBTQ+ Jews navigating today’s overlapping crises in Israel and in America? In this Z3 Podcast episode, Rabbi Amitai Fraiman speaks with Hila Peer and Asher Gellis about the impact of rising antisemitism and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment at a moment when community feels both more fragile and more essential than ever. The aftermath of October 7 saw rising tensions around LGBTQ+ identity in Jewish and queer spaces alike, and the polarization in both Israel and America have placed enormous pressures on an already vulnerable community. They conversation explores the heated debate over pinkwashing and how it has shaped perceptions of Jewish LGBTQ+ activism. What unfolds is a candid and deeply personal conversation about personal identity, community belonging, and the shared values that can sustain Jewish communities through times of crisis.
About Our Guests
Asher Gellis, MBA, founder and CEO of JQ International earned a BA in Political Theory from UCLA and an MBA from Pepperdine University. Prior to launching JQ International in 2004, Asher served as the Regional Director for Hadassah’s Young Judaea in California, Nevada, and Hawaii. He created curriculum for the Bureau of Jewish Education in Los Angeles, and guided teen scholastic Israel tours. Asher has launched dozens of groundbreaking LGBTQ+ Jewish programs and services affecting tens of thousands of lives and steering the Jewish Community towards greater LGBTQ+ inclusion for generations to come.
Hila Peer is the Chair of the Aguda – Israel’s LGBTQ Association, the country’s pioneering LGBTQ organization established in 1975, now celebrating 50 years of activism. A respected leader and passionate social activist, she has spearheaded major advances in civil rights and pro-LGBTQ legislation in Israel. Re-elected as Aguda’s Chair since 2020, Peer is recognized as one of the most prominent voices of Israel’s LGBTQ community and a proud mother of twins.
Video Transcript
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (00:09)
Hello and welcome to the Z3 Project podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman, the founding director of the Z3 Project and I am so glad you're here with us. This show is where we bring together leading voices from across the Jewish world to wrestle with some of the biggest questions shaping our people's future questions of identity, politics, and community. It really mirrors what we do at our conferences. have ours coming up in November 9th and we have eight more planned throughout the year across the continent. Other communities are doing their own conversations, but this podcast is really a way to capture that element and bring it to many more people on this platform.
is one that feels both urgent and inspiring really was heartbreaking heartwarming the state of LGBTQ+ life and Jewish communities in the U.S and in Israel in this moment in general there's growing polarization the shifting norms deep challenges in both countries and what does it mean to belong to advocate and dream about a more inclusive Jewish future and I want to think of something in particular in this moment in the war in Gaza and this community find itself being pushed out from both spaces on the one hand they're being accused of pinkwashing we'll talk about that as well in the other hand they're being tokenized
often ⁓ and they're really ⁓ a community that has been marginalized is finding itself even increasingly so and that means that we need to be more aware ⁓ and mindful of what that means and to really understand this better I'm joined by two exceptional ⁓ leaders the first is Asher Gellis he's a founder and CEO of JQInternational for over two decades. Asher has been a driving force in creating groundbreaking programs and services that have transformed Jewish life for tens of thousands pushing our communities towards greater LGBTQ+ inclusion that will
resonate for generations and from Israel, ⁓ very, very honored to ⁓ host and welcome Hila Peer. She's the chair of the Aguda, Israel's pioneering LGBTQ+ association now marking 50 years of activism. It's unbelievable. And she's a respected leader and a proud mother of twins. Hila has spearheaded advances in civil rights and legislation and today stands as one of the most prominent voices for Israel's LGBTQ+ community. And really is remarkable to hear both of these
wonderful individuals perspectives and the challenges and opportunities that are facing us and so together with them we'll dig into the realities facing the community ⁓ and LGBTQ+ Jews here both in the U.S. I say here because this is where I am and in Israel and the progress and the setbacks the impact of the war and political polarization and the tensions and opportunities in how our communities connect across the ocean we'll also ask what kind of Jewish future they imagine for the next generation and what still gives them hope so thank you again for joining us and if you find this conversation meaningful please
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Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (03:14)
Hi, Asher. Hi, Hila. Welcome to the Z3 Podcast. I am really excited about this conversation and I'm really honored to host the two of you on this Z3 Podcast episode.
Hila Peer (03:26)
blessings.
Asher Gellis (03:26)
We're thrilled
to be here.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (03:27)
Good, yofi, yofi. So, I mean, at this point, I've introduced you to the audience. They know a little bit about you ⁓ and your work. So we're jump right into it because, these conversations are timed and we want to be efficient with it. you know, we've been going through a lot as a people. That's an understatement. I'd say, I don't know how much of an understatement of the year, of the decade or more, ⁓ but it's been rough all around. And in this conversation,
which is, you know, in a way to help shine a light on other elements of our community that people might not be aware of as much as ⁓ we think they might maybe should be, is the experience of ⁓ the LGBTQ community and how they are going through this experience because, I, someone who follows the news almost religiously, there's all kinds of obvious things that are going on, but I...
I'm much more curious to hear about it from your perspective, right? And you're each sitting in a different place, come from different, you know, and experiences obviously that led, you know, of your life and your context. And so that's really the purpose of this conversation to kind of elaborate around that and see what we would like to share with our audiences of something that they don't typically come across or don't know enough about. And so that's why we're here. So really thank you again ⁓ for joining. So, you know, I...
Let's cut right to it. The first question will go from there. ⁓ It might seem a little bit jarring just because of like there's not a lot of preamble, but I know that you will handle it well. how would you ⁓ describe and as we go through sometimes Asher answer first or Hila, whatever, what it moves you, you know, don't worry about it. It's all good. So how would you describe the current realities of the community and the LGBTQ Jews ⁓ in your own respective communities?
Right. You're in Israel. Asher, you're in the U.S. And maybe, Asher, and what you're seeing, what you're going through in this particular.
Asher Gellis (05:34)
Sure, we'd be thrilled to share. ⁓ I can tell you that ⁓ in two decades of doing this work, this is a very different time than I've ever experienced before. Since October 7th, we've seen a sharp increase in not just antisemitism ⁓ in general to the community at large, but we've also noticed that through many of our trans and non-binary community members, the level of antisemitism has been
exponentially higher for them and what they've experienced. They who enter into their communities are often being asked to make statements either against Israel or anti-Zionist in some way or another and whether they are, whether Israel is priority in their identity or not, this expectation is being made of them and they're finding themselves constantly being forced out of their communities. The trans and non-binary communities have very limited safe space to live in.
and to operate in and to experience community in. And for them to be shunned by their trans and non-binary community members for not making anti-Israel statements has been a very heartbreaking thing that has sent many of them into crisis. And our helpline that supports LGBTQ Jews has seen a 67 % increase in crisis calls from the trans and non-binary community since October 7th.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (06:59)
That's terrible. So you're saying that in general, it's already a limited space and now it's become even increasingly so in this moment.
Asher Gellis (07:05)
Yes,
it has. The level of isolation is just unprecedented for a community that already felt isolated and already felt targeted. And with this political climate here in the United States, their identity is even further the subject of political politicization.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (07:24)
Yeah, we're going to talk later about this inter like this, I guess, compounding effect or intersection of both of here and there. And there's two sides of that coin. In other words, of what it looks like from Israel. It looks like from here is what I mean when I say two sides of that coin. But we'll get there because there's a lot to uncover there in that that conversation. But I do want hear from Hila's perspective and how are things?
Hila Peer (07:47)
I think
it's fascinating, really is the source of the conversation to how...
The winds that are blowing in the states are affecting Israel as well. But as in the community in Israel, we've had a very, very difficult four years now since the beginning of the judicial U-Haul. I October 7th met the LGBTQ community in survival mode from the get-go because we had a coalition that was formed in the government that completely and openly stated that they are coming for amendment of the bills that allow us
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (08:05)
Hmm.
Hila Peer (08:22)
free life and cutting off our budgets and so on and so on. So we spent a whole year in the streets. October 7th was supposed to be week 40 of the protests against the judicial U-Haul and instead it met us in a state of...
utter war that I have never seen before in my life. So the emergency situation really sent us into depths of emergencies that we've never met. mean, people who were evacuated from their houses, we're talking about tens of thousands of people, and with them are kids and grownups who were thrown back into the closets. I mean, imagine that you were a family of five living up north or down in the settlements, and you were evacuated, but you were evacuated to a hotel room.
entire five people family in one room. Zero privacy. You don't have your surroundings that you're used to around you. So people were very much in distress. We had a near collapse of the system that we operate as a hotline and social workers that were working.
And it took a few months to actually just get ourselves together. I myself was in a party down south. A lot of the people from the organizations were all around the country when everything started. So when we got to the point where we cannot be in emergency mode, we just started to kind of get the pieces back together. And I think what's fascinating with what's happening now...
And actually from November when the protests in the states started against the action that Israel was taking in Gaza, the first hit that the LGBTQ community got in Israel was because of queers of Palestine. The queers in Israel were marked as double-crossers, which is completely insane. That's what the far-right used to attack us here.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (10:19)
Yeah, that's crazy. You're both describing, ⁓ first of all, an immensely painful moment and one that's already immensely painful for many. And what's interesting, find, and Hila, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious to hear if you can maybe elaborate a little bit on this and then ⁓ you ⁓ as well, Asher. in terms of the, in Israel, I remember very early on, was a, ⁓ you're talking about the connection between the judicial overhaul and how that influenced the public.
discourse. And then of course, we know that there are people who are serving, right, who belong to the whole range of experiences. And there was that heartbreaking story of a couple that ⁓ one of the partner was, was killed in action, ⁓ fighting off terrorists, and then the country couldn't really figure out how to recognize their status. So you're getting that that's like the pincer move there's on the one hand, the country is, is expecting you to show up fully.
and serve and carry the burden of citizenship in Israel. And on the other hand is stripping away a lot of the protections and the ability to do so freely outside of those constraints. And in the U.S, it's a little bit different, obviously, but there is a moment it feels like there's one side of the community is pushing you out into where you are trying to find comfort. And then that community too is pushing you out. And I can't imagine ⁓ that the exponential amount of pain. ⁓
So it's, mean, is that, that feels reflective and accurate, Hila from the Israeli perspective and Asher. Yeah. Yeah.
Asher Gellis (11:53)
Yes, definitely
a very painful layered pain upon layered pain for all of us.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (12:00)
So those are, that's, know, ⁓ that's how the war is, think, at least from my superficial understanding, that's an external impact. That's where it shows up externally. What are you seeing used, both mentioned, arise in the crisis hotline use and kind of that, but what else are you seeing that the war is impacting internally within the community itself?
Hila Peer (12:25)
I think if I'll talk about Israel, think there are a things that are happening. One of them that we've really waited to see how they settle because emotions were so high in the first few months was the way that people's opinions got to extreme places. I some were painting it as...
a complete and utter fail of the government's policy over the last decade and we should be thriving for peace and if we're not amplifying voices for peace enough this is what we're getting. Well the other hand, the other side was going completely for this is a war of existence, we cannot live even next to each other. And I think it's just an amplified voice of the entire Israeli community right now in a whole. But when it comes down to the LGBTQ community
If you have right-wing thoughts, you can't even express them because we have trouble even having a discussion like we are now if we don't agree on things. It's a lot harder to do so. Everything is extremely emotionally charged. And we're not getting...
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (13:30)
Yeah, people have to pick.
Yeah, it's more polar. We'll have to pick a side. Yeah, yeah. Can you I want you ended there and your physical gonna say a little bit more. I want to I want to ask you to unpack that more in terms of like, if internally politically, there's also an expectation of alignment in a certain way.
Hila Peer (13:44)
Thank
I mean, traditionally, if we talk about human rights, the parties that are holding the flags of human rights and Israel policy are left-wing. And left-wing parties are not in to or support wiping out Gaza, transferring all the citizens, and having military control over it. But the right-wing, in a way, the extreme right-wing is, though the right-wing is extremely against
the LGBTQ community's existence. And they even showcased it before the war. So a lot of people don't have a political home. And that's another crisis that we need to deal with right now. We call it the same right, ⁓ which we don't have. But even just wanting to make a space for these conversations to kind of try and unpack the sentiment to try and speak.
from our heads and not only from our hearts that's been bruised, we don't have a lot of good examples for that.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (14:51)
Asher, how are you seeing this play out here in the States?
Asher Gellis (14:53)
Well, I mean, I can think internally about our community who's feeling a sense of trauma for everything that's going on, but I can also tell you that it's happening from within our own community as well. The sort of cancel culture mentality is definitely rising and bubbling up constantly. I think ⁓ the expectations that people will align politically in a certain direction are very hard and nuanced. The JQ community is
has very many different disparate political opinions and beliefs and levels of conservative versus, you know, progressive. we're ⁓ we're monomonolith as a community. And ⁓ there is that external expectation that we are, but we're not on the inside. And we're constantly experiencing even from the inside, folks who don't want to be around people who don't agree with them 100 % politically, which is not realistic. And ⁓
and also not something that we're gonna police. We try to create a safe space for people regardless of how they feel and believe and where they find themselves politically to come and join us and to be in community and to also respect others whether or not they agree politically or not that we created a safe environment. So while we've seen a huge uptick of new people wanting to get involved in the work that we're doing, we've also seen some people step away because the lack of
you know, specific alignment to whatever they believe within their specific lens on the situation in the world or here domestically.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (16:30)
Yeah, yeah, I find that complicated. mean, that that that really does mirror graft on not surprisingly, of course, right into the broader, the broader conversation, you know, even our work itself, that's exactly it. People, for some reason, are led to believe that they're going to surround themselves with people who think and experience life exactly the way they do. And if that's not the case, then they they then they don't know how to cope. And I think that the actual and I wonder, left your experience because I
This is my experience about Israel. And sometimes I'm I worry that I'm too naive, but at least I still think this is somewhat true is that in Israel, because of the we'll call it the forced proximity that's born out of sovereignty. In other words, the idea that they live together. Right. You the crazy uncle that we talk about in the U.S, you meet him once in Thanksgiving in Israel. It's every Shabbat dinner. Right. And so like that close. And by the way, crazy is a matter of perspective. Right. Like, you know.
Someone is calling any one of us crazy and we're calling some that same person, it doesn't matter, right? But the point being that because of that forced proximity with all the tensions, there is a level of resilience, I think, hope, to perspectives. I mean, if you look at the news, it's separate, but in the day-to-day life, that is actually ⁓ more robust than I think in other places where there isn't forced proximity.
So that's my, that's, so I wanna hear if you think that's true. Asher, how does that play out here as well?
Hila Peer (18:03)
Well first of I think it's immensely true and I think that's one of the core reasons that the gay struggle as a movement was so successful in Israel. I everywhere you look you have the gay uncle or the lesbian or the trans or the bisexual on the table around you. So you can't hate somebody you know so well. That's the way we got, that's how we got so far because we're so intertwined with each other.
I do think though that the last four years has People have started to be a lot further away It started in 2019 with the rush of campaigns We had four elections in a row and only the fifth was the calling one
another media channel which is the way to silo communication and opinions through people. I mean I'll share personally my mom watches news on channel 14 which is far right and we agree basically on nothing but when she started watching channel 14 and it's been almost two and a half years now she also stopped talking about politics with me. She will not discuss it with me anymore and that's a turning point.
So when we stop talking, but we still coexist, because she's my mom and I see her pretty much every other day, I love her, she's insane, just like you said. ⁓ We're all, someone's crazy, sir. ⁓ But once we stopped talking and that got to be the norm,
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (19:24)
I didn't say don't get me in with your mom. I didn't say that. Yes, yes, that I will say. Yes, yes.
Hila Peer (19:37)
then we start having more trouble. And when we see it in surveys as well with the LGBTQ's acceptance percentage, when we survey the entire country, we see a decrease and we see more violent cases and we see attacks and we see things that we've never seen before and it's all kind of a pressure cooker that's starting to kind of overflow now.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (20:00)
Asher, how does this play out?
Asher Gellis (20:02)
⁓ I think it's a little different for us here in the United States. Folks do have a little more separation from their families here. ⁓ Just by sheer fact that queer community members tend to move to specific cities to live in to feel safe in their neighborhoods or in community. ⁓ And so while I do know that I hear from community members that their family members are listening to different media sources than they listen to, and that has
created a lot of conflict in the family. think that there's just an ability to sort of put that in the back burner and not think about it for the lack of proximity. But I will tell you that it is something that is happening within the queer community at large ⁓ with the conversation around Israel and what's going on in Gaza and with Hamas and the Palestinians. It is a...
It is lacking the nuance of understanding that it is complicated situation. It's sort of an all or nothing. And so for many of our queer community members, as I mentioned earlier, the trans and non-binary, they are feeling very pushed out ⁓ and canceled. And it's heartbreaking. ⁓ And while we can...
rejoice in the fact that we get more people coming to our Shabbat dinners because they want to participate. It's not for the best reason. And we're thrilled that we can be there to create community and to create support services and wellness services to help community members in crisis. ⁓ It is, it's very heartbreaking to see that it's coming from all angles.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (21:43)
Yeah. So yeah, it's, you know, so I, for a second, I want to pause just so we can also breathe because I'm like feeling the energy go down because the moment we are in and that's, that's fine. It just is. And this is not in any way to diminish or negate the fact that it's incredibly difficult. I do think it's important for ourselves and for audience to hear maybe if there is, I hope there is something a little positive before we go. We'll go back to the other questions. I promise. But I, because we need to unpack.
There's a lot of that I have in my mind. even something that you have seen that's positive. So Asher, you mentioned more people showing up, maybe for the wrong reasons. But okay, we say, what is it? From not wanting, from for the wrong reasons, the right reasons will emerge later. So are there any positive developments that you're seeing? Something that gives you a little bit of...
I don't know if I can introduce that later, but yeah.
Asher Gellis (22:41)
I mean, it goes beyond the fact that we've all these new people showing up our programs. People are interested in more meaningful connections and getting involved in leadership opportunities. Folks have signed up to be a part of our advocacy training program and our speakers bureau. Community members are stepping up and wanting to volunteer and in a way that I haven't seen in a while. I think in the early years when I did this work, folks would volunteer, we'll do anything you want. And then in 10 years ago, it was like,
I want to do this very specifically and if you can't make it work, I don't want to volunteer. And now we've kind of returned to a place where people are like, just tell me what you need me to do. I really want to do something meaningful. And so that's a silver lining, I think. And I, you know, I don't want to like belittle the reason why, you know, this is happening, but I think that knowing that...
There is a place for community members to turn to and to feel a sense of joy in a world that feels very dark is a very powerful thing that will have ripple effects in their identity moving forward.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (23:45)
Yeah, sure.
Hila Peer (23:46)
I definitely agree. think, know, lot of the last, until October 7th, were a lot of question marks that were raised in Israel about what is a community? Are queers a community? Is the LGBTQ+? Are you really a community? What makes that? And I think that we were seeing that when we need each other, we show up.
We haven't had a percentage of civil engagement and not just from people who are in the community. From mothers, from friends, from general human rights supporters, they're really stepping in into the play to help. They're stepping in to volunteer, they're stepping in to go to protest, they're doing everything. And they're involved and we haven't seen this, this is what we've been.
Gugging for for the last three years before the war started we needed people to be involved and they were in desperate mode and I think you know, it's like a pendulum how bad does it need to get for people to get out of their chairs and when Times evolve and everything is getting more digital people are not used to volunteering anymore. It's not the norm It's not the norm to come and show up and it's getting back to that and I think that's really what we need to take a huge leap forward
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (25:00)
That's good. That's great. So I want to ask something that has been kind of in the background of this conversation. He kind of mentioned it now. Very specifically, Asher, you alluded to it, of course, several times. But I'm going to make a statement. I hope I get it right. If I'm wrong, correct me. to the question of what is a community, right? And what makes it a community? That's kind of like the foundation of this.
So this next part I want us to kind of focus on. So it's not just about, what makes a community? There's technical elements to that, that's fine. But I think that I'm curious, at least at first to hear from a, like looking at this group as if it's a uniform monolith, you know, everybody thinks the same and we know that's not true ⁓ for a fact. It shows up, A, we talk about internally, right? We said that internally there people that are on the right, on the left, you know.
observant, non-observant, whatever it is, it's great. But also externally, Hila mentioned earlier on, Asher, as did you, how in Israel, well, mentioned separately. Hila mentioned how in Israel, when, you know, the beginning of seeing queers for Palestine show up, how that impacted the conversation in Israel. And Asher, you mentioned through a different angle, this thing of like belonging into a ⁓ community, how you're being pushed out for your positions. And that's basically the question of
and many, words, too many words, the question of either tokenization on the one hand or pinkwashing on the other. How does that kind of inform, how does that play out? How does that, know, I want you to share your perspective, not mine, of how you're seeing it happen.
Hila Peer (26:49)
wanna start Asher?
Asher Gellis (26:50)
No.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (26:52)
Yeah.
⁓
Hila Peer (26:56)
⁓
that was brutally honest. Okay, I'll take this one. I think the question marks of being a community will always be there. And I think if we won't have question marks, we won't be able to rise above them. When we assume things, they fall apart because we don't spotlight on them. And I'll give an example. There's been, and I'll use, Asher's community to hop from.
Asher Gellis (26:57)
Sorry.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (26:59)
Good. Good. Good. Good. Yeah.
Hila Peer (27:26)
⁓ There's been so many talk in the States about the people who trying to separate the tea from the community. Drop the T hash out the transgenders and the queers and all that part. It didn't skip Israel. We had an op-ed posted in one of the biggest online gay channels that said that we need to drop the "T". The transgenders...
are harming our struggle. They're not part of us. We need to take them out and move forward and we'll be accepted and we serve in the army and we look like everybody else and we just want love and that will work. And the backlash that that op-ed got was heartwarming. It was amazing, honestly. It brought or it made the distance that was
always there in a way between the LGB and the T, much, much smaller. Because we had to publicly opinionate and we had to wipe out the drop the T. But we took a stand and so many people took that stand that the transgender community in Israel saw that too. And that led us to join hands much closer.
I think a community is built on values, not on sexual orientation or not on gender. And I think that we're seeing it more and more. ⁓ And that's why there's not much of a difference other than the topic between the LGBTQ struggle, and the women's struggle and minority rights struggle. We're all intertwined because we talk values and our values are the same.
It causes trouble a lot of times within the community when we're not on the same opinions. But if we're able to talk about it and we get back to our core values, it makes us much closer as a community. So the more they challenge us, the more they glue us together.
Asher Gellis (29:34)
So I agree 100 % with Hila that ⁓ the values is really the place to focus and really the underlying fabric of what holds us all together. And I won't deny that I hear from the sides ⁓ wanting to separate out and divide our community. fortunately for us, it's not, I've never felt that it's a very strong current within our community.
I do hear outliers making statements for which is an always, in my opinion, an opportunity for a conversation that can lead to like, you know, education, opportunity to evolve your opinion. I myself didn't like using the word queer for the first 10 years I was doing this work and now I love the word. And sadly in American culture, the vocabulary carries a lot of weight, sometimes a little bit more than in other cultures for good and for bad.
But I will tell you that by and large, our leadership and those most invested in our community feel ⁓ a common value, Jewish values of creating inclusive space, making sure everyone has a seat at the table, that we want to leave the world a better place. Then we found it ⁓ that there's a sense of Klal Yisrael. ⁓ It is very much woven deep in the sort of psyche of our Jewish community.
For those who are atheist, for those that are orthodox, for those that are Jew-ish, Jew-lite, the values are what seems to hold us together more than anything else. And that has been a strong point for us in making sure our community really includes everyone and protects everyone.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (31:22)
Great. So ⁓ I'm to call both of you out because you did a very, very good job answering the first part of my question, which is about the community side of it. But you beautifully evaded the second part of the question. But before we get to the second part of the question, which is about tokenizing and pinkwashing and that element of it, ⁓ I do think it's worth taking a little bit of a detour for a second, really, like in what is this, you know, for the for the uninitiated, right? What is the the essence of the debate about separating separating out ⁓
elements of the community ⁓ as you see it. And I am super interested ⁓ because I like learning new things. But we don't have to go down that rabbit hole too much. just because we mentioned it and use it as an example, it's going to be helpful for the listener to understand what exactly are the sides and what's the cases for and against it. Very, very briefly. And if anybody want to just take that for a second.
Asher Gellis (32:14)
Sure. ⁓ What I can tell you is that we as a queer community are seen ⁓ on the outside as we're othered, just to name that, just as the non-heterosexual or the non-cisgender community, we're seen as ⁓ this sort of category as a lump sum. We're not a monolith, not just in political beliefs, but in our identity and the way our identities intersect with who we are.
someone's sexual orientation and who they're attracted to, who they love is very different than someone's gender identity and how they see themselves in the world and understand themselves in this world. And those are not on the same ⁓ sort of linear spectrum or circular spectrum, however you want to look at it. They're not the same conversations. Something that you hold in your heart is very different than something you hold in your mind or something that you
feel is very different than ⁓ something that you know you are on the inside. there's a lot of different differences, don't just between what it means to be transgender, cisgender, or gay, lesbian, bi, or straight. There's also, even within the LG and B communities, there's a lot of difference in our community. And I will say that
The gay male population has, in my opinion, the most amount of power in our community. ⁓ And they also have, in my opinion, the most amount of wealth. Now, gay men in general make less than straight men and lesbian women make less than straight women when looking at the studies, the gay men, just the same as straight men who have more power and wealth in the straight community, is similar in the queer community.
And we see our trans and non-binary community members experience an unprecedented amount of job discrimination that we as gay and lesbians have experienced for sure. And I couldn't come out 20 years ago at my job, but it was also 20 years ago. So things are very different now and the trans conversation has come to visibility at a much later period in comparison.
And so those communities who have had more opportunity to advocate and have vocabulary and the community to sort of work together to advance their cause now have more resources, still insufficient, but more resources than other communities. And that causes a disparity. ⁓ You go into the gay culture and if you just very simplistically, all the bars are pretty much for gay men. ⁓ They're all designed for gay men.
and gay men tend to spend more money on alcohol, they have more resources to do that. And as a result, we don't have many lesbian bars anywhere. So it's a terrible example, but it's such a simplistic way look at it. ⁓ And so there's a lot of nuance. ⁓ And fortunately, ⁓ the leadership in our community is aware of that and they work towards ⁓ creating opportunities to somehow shrink the gap, but there's a long way to go.
And ⁓ we're just barely seeing the tip of the iceberg and understanding that, especially as a gay man, I can say that. Or even in the queer community or the Jewish community as an Ashkenazi Jew in the United States, there's a sense of Ashkenormativity. So it's not a monolith to our community. It's something you see across the entire Jewish community and the entire LGBTQ community.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (35:48)
But Asher, for the debate of separating the trans community out of it, right? When he last says that someone in the community wrote a piece, I'm like, okay, that's interesting. I can probably project my own thinking of internally and externally, but so what? I wanna hear it from you, you know what I mean? Because listeners, this might be the first time they're hearing. What do mean they're trying to separate the LGBT, the LGB?
Asher Gellis (35:55)
Hmm.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (36:17)
from the T and what does that mean? Like that could be, yeah.
Asher Gellis (36:21)
Well,
mean, just if you look at the results of like who supports marriage, gay marriage in this country, the majority of people in this country support gay marriage. However, because of the politicization of like trans identity, you do not have most people in this country supporting trans community members. So if you decide to separate yourself out from the gay and lesbian community, from the trans community, the gay and lesbian community has more rights, has more visibility, more acceptance. And why are you trying to poke a sleeping bear?
Like we've already made advancements in this level of our identity and yeah, sure.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (36:53)
So that's utility argument,
Again, ⁓ for clarity for the listener, what you understand is, of course, obvious for others might not be. And I want to go back to the main thing, but I do think it's important. the reason I think it's important is A, so listeners are educated. But on a more important level, I think it also demonstrates that it isn't a monolith. And on top of that, I do think it informs this question of tokenization and pinkwashing, ultimately.
Asher Gellis (37:23)
Mm-hmm.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (37:23)
Right? Because
if you understand some of the internal stuff and what are the different forces at play, right? A more conservative mindset, generally speaking, in the world of, you know, there's a binary and so therefore this and that, whatever, that informs a lot of these conversations. am, you know, as an outsider, I see it, et cetera. This is why I want to, we're spending this for a second to really like hone in on like, what are the sides of the conversation? And then we'll go back. This is just a detour, but we'll, get there.
Hila Peer (37:50)
I think I can shine a bit of a light on this one. think, psychology-wise speaking, a lot of the gay men, I'll take Israel as an example, have been in struggle for more than 50 years here to get their rights, to get a sense of peace of mind. And it was a few years ago that the person who is right now chair of the Knesset, who is gay, stated in an interview that the gay struggle is over because now
were allowed to do surrogacy. And we were like, what? What are you talking about? He was seeing all the way to the edge of his own nose, in my opinion. was completely shutting out all the distress, because people really want a good story by now. They don't want to be in struggle for so long. I think that's why people from within the community hold that opinion, or they're holding us back.
There differences between us. It's not the same. If we cut them out, we'll get to peace times and we'll have a better future sooner. That's the pro reasons. The cons? I don't even think I need to go through the cons. I can just say who's promoting these values. I can tell you, I told Asher this when we met the last time when he was in Tel Aviv.
We, the center in Tel Aviv sent out a traditional every year letter they send out to the U.S embassy in Israel to ask for their support for the Tel Aviv [Pride] March. That didn't happen and that's a different tragedy, but you know what the response was? It stated the embassy cannot support LGB efforts this year. They dropped the T.
This is an intention that's coming from the U.S. administration and it's coming from wings that are starting to promote these values beforehand to divide and conquer, nothing else. And it's coming from evangelists who promoting these ideas. And the point is to really divide and conquer. Because when they separate us into different twigs who are much smaller than the complete whole,
it's a lot easier to harm us. And we've seen it happen in other countries as well. It's happened in Hungary and it happened in Poland. And we just need to open our eyes to this global village and see what's going on.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (40:10)
Got it. Okay, so that's really, really helpful. Thank you. Thank you for both of you for elaborating that. So now I'm gonna hold you though accountable to the other part of the question, which is the question of pinkwashing and tokenizing, which can be seen as two sides of the same coin. And from my perspective, I'll just say that what my challenge with some of these conversations, right, is that we are, and we don't have to open up this too much, but I just, wanna share my perspective on this at least.
is this idea that we are like this, you the limitations of identity politics, right? When we pour ourselves into one element of our identity and that is the only thing that we are expect, we either ourselves or others expect us to live up to or only see us through that thing, it's incredibly limiting. There's utility to it and there's also incredibly limiting. My own very, very different example, I am, you know, in the setting that I work, I am the only Orthodox rabbi.
Okay, very different of course from everything we talked about, but I promise you that lots and lots and lots of people project onto me their own expectations in all directions, right? ⁓ you're an Orthodox, ⁓ straight Ashkenazi rabbi with American, like then I already know you, then I already know everything about you that there is, right? And it's lazy, it's lazy and it's also very damaging.
Right. So I think that the conversation of tokenization and pinkwashing as a two sides of a coin, right. ⁓ Is an interesting one, an important one to talk about. How do we, what are we seeing? How does this influence ⁓ all of it? The way we carry ourselves, the way the conversation is outside internally. Yeah, that's where we're going to go. So buckle up. No, but I, yeah.
Hila Peer (42:05)
I'm just buckling in because I'm emotional, so I'd really be happy if Asher would start.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (42:09)
It's all about it. It's all good.
Asher Gellis (42:10)
No problem,
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (42:10)
Yeah.
Asher Gellis (42:11)
happy to. ⁓ It's very real, the tokenization, the accusations of pinkwashing. ⁓ I personally and any of my staff and my community members are being attacked on left and right ⁓ through ⁓ awful, I mean, through emails.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (42:31)
literally and figuratively.
Yeah.
Asher Gellis (42:35)
I mean, look,
I listen, I don't want to talk about this because it's something that's affecting the entire Jewish community, but our security budget is through the roof. It's not what we expected to be spending. And we already feel that we're spending so much on security for our programs. ⁓ Just in general, as a Jewish community, we have to do that. But I think that we are feeling that cancel culture kind of butt up against us on the left and the right. And there's constantly
It's almost like trolling. There are people who are seeking us out to sort of spar with us and see what kind of reaction we give. ⁓ And it comes, it's coming from all sides. It's not one going in one direction. It's coming both sides of the bell curve ⁓ are constantly challenging us and trying to police what we say and who we are and how we identify. And that
That definitely is layered into the conversation around tokenization and pinkwashing. am personally, I cannot speak for my organization, but personally, I'm a very left-wing person. I support a two-state solution. I love Israel. Sorry.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (43:48)
That's very left.
That's very left. That's a sad joke. It's a sad joke. I know. Yeah.
Asher Gellis (43:51)
It seems like it's now super left. ⁓
Hila Peer (43:55)
Everything is so extreme today, isn't it?
Asher Gellis (43:59)
Exactly.
⁓ you know, we receive comments from people on social media or emails before someone's willing to attend one of our programs to check to make sure we are, again, as I mentioned earlier, aligning with whatever they think is the way we are supposed to believe, feel or think. And it's a lot of other people telling us who we are and how we think.
And us trying to like, instead of being reactive, being proactive with the way we talk about ourselves, who we are and what is important to us instead of feeling constantly policed by others.
Hila Peer (44:44)
I've been trying to decide how to start explaining this, but we're such a conundrum to call the gay community in Israel pinkwashing since October 7th. I if we look at before, like I mentioned, with all the protests that we were involved in, we were against this government. We were against the fascist, racist part of the governments that were threatening minorities.
And the Agudah and pretty much all 22 organizations from the queer community in Israel all have Arab branches and we work with the Arab Israeli communities. We support the minorities who are coming in from the West Bank who are asylum seekers and we're the only ones doing that. And we had amazing cooperations with the organizations from the States and from across Europe. And then October 7th
And it is if nothing existed beforehand. And every time we opened our mouths, it was like, you're pinkwashing. And the exact other thing was happening in the beginning, the first few months, my only statement was, please do not pinkwash Hamas. That is not the organization.
that deserves pinkwashing, there's a difference between innocent civilians and a terror organization. And people could not get that very thin difference through their heads, and it was very frustrating. And I think there was a very famous case about the tank soldier that went in with a gay pride flag in Gaza.
do see that? He went in, it was pretty much in the beginning, think it was about November or December, that they went into Gaza and he opened up the gay flag. And he took a picture with it and the IDF retweeted it. I think that the IDF made a mistake by retweeting it. But I know that guy. And the reason that that guy did that is because it represents his values going into war. He's going in with a flag that represents his values.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (46:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm.
Hila Peer (46:53)
And I'll tell you something more. If we wanted to pinkwash, we would have done so much. If we even talk about the hostages, it's just an impossible situation. We had hostages who were from the gay community. Nobody said anything. It's completely irrelevant. And on the other hand, I have to say that I agree with people who are criticizing Israel when Israelis tell them,
If you don't agree with us as a queer person, then you go live in Gaza. Let's see if you can live there. They'll kill you. They're anti gay. That's not the right answer. Because we're talking about values, human rights values. So I think saying that we're pinkwashing for Israel, my God, we're not talking Israel is conformed of so many groups. I hate saying this. I know it's the go to, but it's complex. And it is complex. But we've been, but we've
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (47:46)
Yeah, it is complicated. No, it is. It is. Look,
yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Hila Peer (47:52)
So we've been fighting against the government's values for a year and some. And then with our public in a very, very difficult, traumatic moment, trying to get the pieces together. And when we open our mouths, we get shut down by people calling us pink washers. We can't even move an inch. And at the same time, when demonstrations from across the seas are using gay flags there,
we're getting the hit here from the far right. So we're kind of in the middle no matter what happens and at a certain point we're like whoever's willing to hear a complex answer is more than welcome to it.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (48:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
So my follow-up, immediate follow-up question for this is like, look, I don't expect much from uber conservatives, right? No, they didn't turn on anybody, right? It just, it was there. They've been saying it for 2,000 years. I don't know, whatever, right? Like this is, it's a perspective. But I have to admit that I am, and I imagine that my level of, ⁓
Befuddlement is not close to yours because you're living it of like the failure of the global left In this in this particular question, right in other words of how can we actually like how is it possible? I mean, I have some whatever how is it possible that of that of you know of things like you know Pink washing hummus will call it. I don't want to name it's not about organizations or whatever. But like like how is that even I? Don't under like I
I don't understand it and I can't imagine what it does for people in the world who share an identity. Yeah, please help me understand that, how you're dealing with it, what is it doing, the conversation and just being.
Asher Gellis (49:51)
I think that it's been a heartbreaking situation for us. We don't do our work in a vacuum. We, as an organization, as a community, are always trying to build bridges with other organizations and other communities so that we can all work together to lift everyone up. ⁓ And very quickly after October 7th, we saw ourselves and our community tossed to the side. ⁓ One of my most favorite events that I did for
more than a decade was an Iftar Shabbat, a break fast for Ramadan with our Muslim, queer, and ally community and JQ coming together to break bread, to break the fast, and come together and hear stories. it, you know, there were often times where the conversations were heated for different opinions, but there was the civility and the ability to come together, break bread, and learn from each other and hear each other. ⁓ And
All this rich building work that was done for years seems to have just evaporated for many of us in the Jewish committee. And certainly that's what we're experiencing here within our own space. Many partners that we had that we would have worked to bring programs to teens across the community. ⁓ Basically, we're like, no, we're not going to work with you. Like it doesn't fit our values. And I'm like, what are your values? seek.
diversity, inclusion, we seek making sure everyone feels seen and heard and honored even if they have a different political opinion. What are your values? But they're not even open to the conversation. And that has been a very shocking and jarring thing for me and the leadership within our community. ⁓ And it was, ⁓ I have to say, like really, again, very heartbreaking to experience that reality.
Hila Peer (51:41)
think we're seeing a lot of extreme polarization, ⁓ trickling down from the government and from the main media channels down to the public. And like I've said, it's been happening for a long, long time. But come the aftermath of October 7th, there have been so many initiatives that are coming up and you won't believe this, but most of them are coming from reservists or just soldiers that were injured.
and lost a limb and are now forming an organization that the entire intent is we need to stay together, we need to talk about differences. Don't let the media get to you and they're fundraising for mass events of panels of people who don't agree and speak to each other politely. We're trying to re-educate or actually rebuild a muscle.
of not agreeing yet, respecting each other and wanting to be together. It's kind of a joint destiny. We need to find a path because if we don't, it's going to hit another burst. I mean, the way we are trying to look at October 7 is kind of take to take something from it is we must be together. We were so polarized coming week 40 of the struggle against the judicial U-Haul.
It was, we were close to like, Milchem Et Achim. We were so there. There was so much violence in the streets. Yeah, between, like we were calling cousins against cousins from within the Jewish public in Israel. Very scary. And then somebody from the outside took advantage of that time and harmed us all and that brought us all together. And now we're bickering again.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (53:05)
Yeah, civil war. ⁓
Hila Peer (53:24)
and we're trying to find the blame within. And if we don't learn from it, and that's all, everything that's happening right now is really working towards that. Everything except politics. Politics is horrible and they're still polarizing us.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (53:36)
Yeah, yeah. So thank you for that, for both of you. So I'm curious, I do wanna shift a little bit now because we talked, a lot of it was so far, we talked about community and identity and belonging and external pressures and the different fractures internally. And I'm curious for a second to shift gears to talk a little bit about two parts because we are coming up towards the end of our hour sadly, ⁓ which is why I'm gonna lay it out now this way. ⁓
A, like the Jewish identity component for you, how does that inform your work? That's one side. ⁓ Because I think that's incredibly ⁓ important for people to hear. ⁓ And the other side of that is how is the Jewish community, Hiran again, like it's bit different, that's why I'm hesitating, like the Jewish community in Israel is like, that's just Israel, right? But so for the sake of this, the Jewish community responding and supporting and what else can be done? So basically three things.
Jewish lens in your work, how does that inform it? What does that look like? The Jewish community and its role and what else can be done and what should be done.
Asher Gellis (54:44)
I mean, I was raised here in Los Angeles, ⁓ Jewish day school, Camp Ramah, ⁓ U.S. by pilgrimage. Like I was raised in a Jewish bubble of like community, which was a beautiful thing. I amazing Jewish role models. I did not have any LGBTQ role models growing up. I did not have any LGBTQ Jewish role models growing up. ⁓ I had this sad, unintentional message delivered to me that I didn't have a place in the community.
It was a struggle for me for many years when I tried to seek community when I came out and felt like I couldn't turn to my Jewish community and couldn't reconcile those pieces of my identity. And my life's work has been based on the fact that I want to transform our community ⁓ so that the youth in our community don't feel that they have to make a choice between Judaism and their queer identity, that they can have both and that they can celebrate both and they can thrive in both. ⁓ And I believe that
the work of J.Q. not just creates safe space for queer Jews, but also a lot of our work is advocating for systemic change within the Jewish landscape ⁓ and by using the resources of our many role models to go out into the community to be those role models for the youth in our ⁓ community at large. It's very systematic, I understand, but the values I was raised with are what guide me in my pursuit of transforming the Jewish community because I was raised
in these very ⁓ values driven youth movements of the Jewish community in North America, where, know, B'tselem Elohim, we are all created in God's image, or ⁓ Gemilut Chassidim, acts of loving kindness, or ⁓ any number of values about leaving the world a better place or being inclusive and not leaving anyone behind. And that really, to me, is
It's not unique to me. Many of the community members or most of the community members define themselves entering into JQ, whether or not they are religious or not, affiliated with a synagogue or not. The values of what they were raised with is what's guiding their involvement. And that type of language is so easy to articulate to the Jewish community at large when trying to transform and change hearts and minds or shift opinions. ⁓ so like that, it's very values driven.
And it's a very successful way of looking at it in terms of actualizing change.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (57:13)
Thank you.
Hila Peer (57:15)
I'm so immensely jealous right now. No, I am, Asher. I'll say why, I'll explain why. It is true, just like you said before, I live in Israel. It is the Jewish state. Everyone around me is Jewish, so kind of the Jewish identity dissembles. really, it's like crumbs around. Yet, the religion aspect that I was grown up with.
was only talk to me that I am irregular, that I do not belong, that there's a problem with me from the Orthodox community in all the perceptions of the Jewish Jews around. And that was really shoving me outside. I was for years calling myself an atheist because that God does not accept me, so I'm not even going there.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (57:51)
Hmm.
Hila Peer (58:02)
And I think something shifted for me seven years ago when my girls were born. And I wanted to give them values and I wanted to give them family traditions and I didn't know where to go to look for them. So I started lighting candles on Friday evening when we're having Friday dinner.
And then we started talking about our hopes and dreams over that dinner. And then we started talking about candles, what do they mean? And just through that, I started to find the beautiful things about tradition. But that's, in barracks, about me. I think in a whole, when the Orthodox Jewish community rules over the way Judaism looks in Israel, the gay community is pushed out. So our perception...
enlarge and of course there are people who are Jewish and they are Orthodox and they settle that identity but in a general sense we do not feel a part of the religious community and we can look at who are the religious leaders that are around us. Itamar Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, people who are to say the least not our biggest fans. It's horrible, it's horrible.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (59:12)
⁓ He's not a religious leader. Yeah, yeah.
Hila Peer (59:17)
So that's how we perceive it. So not only do we not have a sense of, I do not have a sense of being Jewish, I have kind of a setback, I'm kind of reluctant from getting close to my own religion basically, and it's something that we're trying to work with today. So we have a lot of work that we're doing with the Reform Community that's actually giving us a way
to look differently and to look at the values. So I really am jealous. I swear to God. ⁓ And I wish we would. No, now I do. I think it's different. It's just, it's so different to be, they're forcing values on us that we don't believe in while telling us that we are not in the norm and don't belong. It's a very different sensation. ⁓
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (59:49)
I to God, they don't believe in, no, it's joking. It's joking, I should say.
Hila Peer (1:00:09)
But I do feel like I have to say this is gonna sound weird, but the first time that I stepped in a synagogue abroad, I felt a part of something. And I feel like that part of something, just like we spoke before about communities saying during times of crisis we connect. There's something epi-
something that grew inside all of the old gay organizations in Israel and we started seeing the protests abroad and we saw what's going on in the gay marches and we saw what's going on with the Dyke march in New York that was just, we couldn't believe what we were seeing.
And it felt like we need to be more connected. It felt like, like, now I truly do understand you and I really do feel Jewish now. It's not even a matter of choice. It's a matter of values and what connects us. So it's kind of a reality, smack of reality.
Asher Gellis (1:01:01)
So I, know, Hila, I totally understand what you mean. I think we're very privileged in North America. You know, the conservative reform, reconstructive movements outside of the Orthodox space, having them for generations impacted our sense of identity as a Jewish community. there's critical mass within those communities that we were never sort of like these fringe pieces outside of Orthodoxy, not at least in my lifetime.
and even my parents' lifetime, it's a ⁓ gift of being able to see our Judaism through multiple lenses and not seeing someone as more religious or less religious, but differently religious. And it's a gift.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:01:43)
But even
in the Orthodox, Asher, even in the Orthodox community now in the States, there's ⁓ baby steps, baby steps. But we're seeing the beginning of it. I ⁓ have to give a shout out to my rabbinic alma mater who recently, you know, who has a stance on this. It's, you know, YCT, they recently ordained a student and generally has done a lot of work and grassroots to kind of move in a much, better direction. It is an Orthodox organization. ⁓
Asher Gellis (1:01:50)
Yes, of course.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:02:13)
By design, they move slowly, but they're moving. So I just feel, ⁓ because I share this side of the equation, I'd say, of how do we make Judaism ⁓ meaningful and what's the I'm looking for, accessible to as many people who want it as possible, I'm excited to celebrate the little wins. And that will bring me to my, little, you know, just to close out this hour, which has been really, ⁓
I'll admit moving and very interesting and educational for me as well. If you want to, you each share, just so we end on this positive, because it's so dark and difficult these days, like one thing thought of hope that you have in your own work or in general, that I think would be a great way to conclude our hour. ⁓
Asher Gellis (1:03:07)
You know, in working as a Jewish communal professional in the United States, of like one of the sort of ⁓ big, ⁓ almost like unstated mitzvahs is ⁓ when relationships come out of the work that you do and we're able to foster a possibility of a future Jewish family. And ⁓ the amount of community members in JQ that find each other ⁓
and are able to celebrate themselves and build a Jewish life and feel a sense of community gives me hope. And I am witnessing so many of our community members have children now, whether it's gay men doing surrogacy or ⁓ there's so many ways to do it nowadays, I won't get into it, but to see so many families building their families with new children, it's not something I saw.
when I was in my 20s coming out as a, I never thought it was a possibility. And I think that while as if you were an LGBTQ community member, sometimes it feels like our march towards ⁓ civil rights and equality and making sure we have an equal seat at the table feels like a very slow drawn out march. ⁓ I have seen a lot of change and I do think we have a lot more work to do.
than not, and I think that that is sometimes not understood outside of our LGBTQ community. I do feel that we are moving in the right direction. Sometimes it's two steps forward, one step back, but we are moving in the right direction. And I'm very proud of our community. And for those that are interested in helping our cause, I will tell you that the LGBTQ community in general is very underfunded.
So please support the work of the Aguda, JQ, any LGBTQ organization and do it from a position of Jewish values of seeking a better tomorrow for the next generation and the generations forward.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:05:12)
Thank you. Thank you, Asher, Hila.
Hila Peer (1:05:15)
I think I'd speak a bit more generally even as a part of the liberal community of the world. Because I think everything that we're experiencing is a sense of madness and people getting lost. Some of them by goodwill or just going to extreme places and some just because they have really, really closed minds. But I have to say that the main thing that I'm seeing, and I am the eternal optimist, I will not apologize for that.
I do see people rallying up to their values ⁓ and that's inspiring. I haven't seen this amount of civil engagement, not in Israel for sure, but I've been hearing a lot from my friends in the States and everybody's talking about how much the community is really waking up and really standing up for each other. And I think that's the right way to go to fight antisemitism to fight conservative restrictions, to make a better future for
all of us. And I see that happening and I think never in the history, not in the history of the gay community, even the first rally starting from Stonewall, that was a traumatic, bad event. So the worse they hit us, the better we become. And I think as Jewish people, we've experienced this so many times in our history. We need to keep our heads high. We need to remember that we have the power and we're rallying. And once we're rallying, we're golden.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:06:43)
Beautiful. Hila, Asher, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Z3 Project podcast. I am really grateful for the work that you do and for the time that you've given just even out of your busy days to have this conversation. And really thank you for your time and for all that you do.
Asher Gellis (1:07:01)
Thank you for having us.
