Teaching Without a Script: Where is Israel Education Headed?— The Z3 Podcast
Welcome to Season 2, Episode 1 of the Z3 Podcast! In a conversation hosted by Z3 Founding Director Amitai Fraiman, Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak-Winer and Robbie Gringras reflect on how Israel education is shifting in response to the events of October 7, 2023. Rather than focusing solely on fostering love for Israel, the discussion emphasizes the need for a more nuanced, values-based approach that explores identity, theology, and community. The speakers trace the historical evolution of Israel education, highlight the struggles many American Jews face in connecting meaningfully with Israel, and distinguish between education and advocacy. They share personal reflections and call for deeper, more open-ended conversations within Jewish communities.
Ultimately, they speak of how Israel education must move beyond simple narratives and instead create space for honest, complex engagement—inviting learners to explore identity, values, and relationships within an evolving Jewish landscape.
About Our Guests
Robbie Gringras is a British-born educator and playwright living in Israel since 1996, bridges Israel-Diaspora relations through empathetic, religiously grounded, and theatrically rich education, coining “Hugging and Wrestling with Israel” and leading innovative work at Makom.
Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak Winer, RJE, is a scholar and educator specializing in pedagogy, leadership, and Israel education, serving as Director of the Master of Educational Leadership program at HUC-JIR in Los Angeles, a Senior Fellow at Brandeis, and a published voice in Jewish educational thought and curriculum development.
Video Transcript
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman
Hello and welcome to the Z3 Project Podcast. I am Rabbi Amitai Freiman. I am the founding director of the Z3 Project and this is our podcast. So for those of you who are joining us and have listened to our previous episodes, you will notice a difference in this upcoming season. In the past, we did more one-on-one long form conversations with leaders and thinkers and activists and practitioners. And in this season, what we're doing, we're trying out something different. We're trying always to iterate and grow. And we are bringing together more than one expert at a time to mimic what we do at our conference, which is having sometimes opposing or complementing perspectives and ideas about any given topic. So this time around, and I'm very excited about this new format, because it kind of gives us an opportunity to hear a little bit more and cover more ground in every given conversation. So in this first conversation that we have, we're gonna cover the topic of Israel Education. And I'm incredibly blessed to have joined me today, two friends and mentors.
The first is Rabbi Dr. Laura Novak-Weiner. She's the director of the Master of Educational Leadership Program at HUCJR, Reah Hirsch School of Education in Los Angeles. And Laura's really an expert. She teaches courses on pedagogy, classroom and organizational culture and leading change. She really is a thought leader in this area. She spoke at our previous C3 conference and she's really, truly phenomenal. The other guest we're really excited to have join us today is Robbie Gringras. Robbie famously coined this term of "Hugging and Wrestling with Israel" and he is a British-born Israeli living in the Galil, in the Galilee. He works in education. He's also a performer. He's a writer and he's now the co-director of For the Sake of Argument and it's a practice organization that really helps communities and learners to kind of engage with the practice of healthy argument throughout the Jewish world. They travel the country. I've seen them in action. I went through their workshops. Truly a phenomenal educator with a lot of insight and a lot of experience in this.
So this conversation between these two master educators covers the question of Israel education in this moment, post October 7 world, past 19 months, but not only: looking back a little bit retrospectively what we have done in the past and has worked and what hasn't worked, what we might need to do moving forward. We dabble in questions of theology and belief and practice and the meaning of all of this and the goals of education. And it is quite an enriching conversation. I truly and thoroughly enjoyed it. You can read more about these speakers in the description of this podcast, and I highly recommend following their work. They're truly phenomenal. I really hope that you enjoy this conversation. This is the Z3 Project podcast, the episode about Israel Education in the classroom and out. Take a listen, share, follow us and let us know what you think.
[Intro music]
Amitai Fraiman
Hi and welcome to the Z3 podcast. I'm Amitai. It's great to be here. I'm joined by two friends and dare I say mentors as well. We have Laura Novak-Weiner and Robbie Gringras. Their full bios are in the description of the episode. But they're both supreme Jewish educators focused very much as well as on Israel education. They're veterans in the field, doing this for very long time.
And it's just great to be here. I look forward to this conversation and to get their sense and a feeling of what's going on now in the field, a little bit of a retrospective conversation about what worked in the past, looking at this moment we are in and forward at what might need to change. And I know it will be an illuminating and interesting conversation. So thank you, Robbie. Thank you, Laura, for joining us. Let's get started. Let's get started.
We'll jump right into it because people are eager. I think in this moment, there's a lot of nervousness around the question of Israel education, in particular post October 7. I will say that there's a lot of conversation and arguments within the community around what is the right course of action. There's different approaches that have been tried for very long time. One approach is maybe how do we develop a love for Israel and for the people and for the culture and the language without, perhaps, without asking any questions. And another approach has been maybe that didn't work so much and we need to reevaluate some of the underlying assumptions that we've had going into these conversations. And so maybe there's a different way in and kind of showing more of what's going on anymore. We'll say less rose tinted glasses. And there's a lot to unpack in that I know.
That's kind of a point of departure of where we are in this moment. And so, you know, I'll let that kind of percolate in the background. I mean, I want to start with just like very straightforward. If we can each make a statement from your perspective, what is the goal of education? Because I think that is where we should really start of everything in that perspective. So I'm going to ask it like in a very straightforward way, Laura, I'm to start with you and I say, you know, what is from your in your perspective as an educator, someone who trains educators, what is the goal of Israel and Zionist education today.
Laura Novak-Winer
Thank you Amitai. It's great to be here with you and in conversation with you and with Robbie. I think that the goal of Israel education needs to be to help our learners of all ages come to know Israel in a really complex, nuanced, diverse way. And that is not just about knowing facts about Israel, but is knowing what Israel means to them theologically and spiritually, knowing what it means to them in terms of their own sense of who they are as a Jew and where it fits within their framework of their Jewish life. And knowing what it means to be part of a broader connection not only to the land of Israel, but to know also the state of Israel and the people of Israel who are a global community, not just the residents or citizens of Israel. So really it's about knowing Israel.
Amitai Fraiman
So yeah, that's, I'm hearing you correctly -- that's very resonant, and I think you're using the word knowing very, very carefully and intentionally. So maybe you want to share a little bit more why you're choosing that word specifically.
Laura Novak-Winer
I'm choosing that word very specifically because I think that the goal of Ahavat Israel, of building love for Israel is actually a misalignment between what we can do as educators and what outcomes need to be. We cannot teach a specific, towards a specific emotion, and guarantee that that's even an outcome. We can't guarantee anything in education. And so I think that Ahavat Yisrael, love of the people of Israel, love of the nation of Israel and the land of Israel is an important Jewish value, but it is not an educational outcome. And it might be something that develops out of a deep knowing of Israel, but it isn't something that we can guarantee. So I've chosen the word knowing, and in Hebrew we say "yidya," because of actually grounded in the history of Israel education coming from pedagogies that were created in the beginnings of the modern Israeli state and pedagogies that were used then by educators in Israel to help new immigrants and help newly born Sabra children come to know the land of Israel. And they called that pedagogy "Yiddiat Ha'aretz," which today is called Land of Israel Studies, but it's really about getting to know the land. And I think that we need to align ourselves with that pedagogy and think about "Yidya," knowing Israel, both the land, the state, the people, the history, the theology is a greater alignment with what we should be doing with our learners outside of the state of Israel.
Amitai Fraiman
So to paraphrase a little bit there, so the goal is to know because we can't necessarily, and we can't guarantee, of course, I'll flick off this caveat, we can't guarantee anything for anything, but to the extent that we can try at least to work towards an outcome, the outcome is if we try to create an outcome that is tied to an emotion, we're certainly not gonna succeed, but if we least try to educate for a level of knowledge of knowing.And there's more to say there for sure -- and Robbie's about to say what I think he's going to say. And if not at all, then I'll supplant it later. But yeah, but very much so you're saying it goes back to this traditional understanding of "Yediyat Ha'aretz," which has been, when I grew up in Israel, that was the name of all the courses that we took when it came to learning in Israel. I think it's derived from, Robbie might know, you might know, I don't know. But there's the statement, "ein ahavat ha'aretz bli yediat ha'aretz." You have to know.
Laura Novak Winer
Yeah, exactly.
Amitai Fraiman
Of course let's talk about the biblical Hebrew, which is of course all connected to this phrase. So thank you, Robbie, from your perspective if we're looking at like the goal of Israel education, you know, you have this, you've developed, you know, Laura is in the setting of training educators and teachers through HUC, you know, you've developed for decades even in this space of educating, but you also developed a very specific methodology and approach and pedagogy for this. And so from your perspective, you know, looking at it from that prism, you know, what would be the goal of Israel and Zionist education in your mind in this moment?
Robbie Gringras
Sure, thanks Amitai, and lovely to be on the same call together with you as well, Laura. So a couple of things. First of all, what I got from when Laura talked about knowing the land is of course that that's also a word for intimacy, right? So Adam "yada et" chava, Adam knew Eve and he didn't write a dissertation. A child emerged.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah.
Laura Novak Winer
Okay.
Robbie Gringras
So there's something about intimacy, which is a deeper and more complex kind of relationship than what, which might include love, but not necessarily. But as for the goals, look, I think first of all, it's really important for us to clarify the difference between Zionist education and Israel education. My perspective is that Zionist education, can take place and can be taught without necessarily taking on board what's happening in Israel today. But Israel education is one of those complicated things because it's both historical and current affairs. It's both knowledge-based or information-based and relationship-based. it's a kind of it's, as I've been talked about, difference between a clock and a cloud. A clock you can take to pieces and put it back together exactly the same shape that it was before. But Israel education is a cloud which is constantly changing its shape. And I often say that the goal of Israel education is for Jews to find their own answers to the four questions that the State of Israel was established to address. I'd say that the four questions that the State of Israel was established to address emerge in the penultimate line of the Hatikva, the national anthem, to be a people free in our land.
And the four questions are to be or not to be is the first question of survival. The second question is about collective identity. Who are we? What does that mean? And how do we relate to people who aren't us? The third question is about freedom. Collective freedom, democracy, rights that we give for ourselves and to others. And in our land, the nature of the land, the borders of the land, the spiritual, historical, geographical location. Those are four questions which I think Israel came to try to provide a specific answer to, and I think the work of education is for each one of us to check out, how do I think that question is being answered? How could it be answered better? Are there other places it can be answered better? That would be, I would say, the goal. And I think in answering that, you get to your intimacy.
Amitai Fraiman
So, yeah. Just to kind of ensure that I understood you correctly, you're saying that if we teach, so the goal is to, not very dissimilar from Laura's saying that level of intimacy, "la da'at, right?" And that's what I knew, I can see where, that was what I thought you were going to say, is to invoke the biblical, that's why I kind of said I didn't want to, but yeah, I can tell.
Robbie Gringras
Hahaha, I was holding myself in. I was hoping you wouldn't say it.
Amitai Fraiman
No, I have a little bit, know, but from that intimacy, you know, whether or not love emerges is, you know, is a separate question, but it's certainly not the goal, but is that level of intimacy, that knowledge, knowing of, and from your perspective is like you use that, you you're using that line in the Hatikva as a prism through which these are the four questions and these are the areas in which we need to be addressing when it comes to Israel education.
But I find interesting in both of you because I, you know, there's a lot that we're not going to be able to cover in this conversation, unfortunately, right? But I think what we're bringing into this already is we're already responding. The two of you certainly, and you know, in my sense as well, is that we're responding to this expectation of love as the outcome, right? And that is, you know, certainly something we hear from a lot of, people in the advocacy space, you know, perhaps, a lot of folks who are nervous around, a layer of relationship, maybe even as a response to some, you know, mid two-thousands, slogans have been thrown about, "lied to us about, Israel", et cetera. And we're ready. Okay. So we have to, we have to skip that,that tells us that we've been doing something differently. So maybe as a helpful contrast, we can talk about how you've seen the evolution of this field or this area of Israel education.
So now we know it's about intimacy and the level of knowledge, but what was it like maybe 20 years ago or 10 years ago that you felt was dramatically different? Whether or not you were in that mindset or not, right? But you could at least tell that there was a difference. And we'll go, mean, I don't know, back Laura, you first, Robbie, you're second, but until, know.
Laura Novak-Winer
I mean, I think that this goal of Ahavai Yisrael, of building love, has existed much longer than 20 years ago. It actually goes back to the beginnings of Israel education in the 1950s here in the United States. I'm speaking here in America, in the United States. And it has perpetuated over these years. It began with the beginning of the state with a sense that American Jews needed to learn to be advocates for and supporters of this nascent nation. Right. And that there was this sense that American Jewry needed to be there to stand in support for Israel and advocate for Israel, give money to Israel. There was a time in which there was a big push for making Aliyah to Israel. And so this idea that American Jews needed to learn to develop a connection to Israel has been there since the beginning of the state. And I think that it's been in recent years that we have gotten into these difficult conversations about, well, why do I need to support Israel when I'm an American? Or, right, or we think about Dr. Sivan Zakai's work in longitudinal work in studying children and how they understand Israel. And they've come to see that Israel is their, the title of her book, their second favorite country.
People lot of questions about why do I actually need to love this country when I don't live there? Or why do I need to love this place that I've never ever even seen? And so I think that this just sort of reiterates for me this misalignment that we have been experiencing, that we need to love Israel, but we haven't been told why. That culturally, the American Jewish community has come to say that it's a binary, that either you love Israel or you don't. And that there's no sort of gray area in the middle to say, well, I care about this place. I care about these people. I care about this land, I care about all its residents, right? And how do I do that? And at the same time, be critical of what's going on or question what's going on or consider what that means for me as a Jew when I see my Jewish values that are coming into play in the sort of in what's going on in the nation, in the nation of Israel.
So I think that we've gotten to a moment, even before October 7, we were at a moment in which we needed to be thinking differently about Israel education. And Robbie has helped us do that with the introduction, not only of these four questions, but even before that, just opening up the idea that we can both hug Israel and wrestle with Israel.
Now, all the more so since October 7th, we're even, we needed even more, right? That people aren't even willing to hug at the moment, some people, and are only wrestling. And some people are only wrestling, are only hugging and not wrestling. And I think this, finding this space of knowing is gonna help us with that.
Amitai Fraiman
Robbie.
Robbie Gringras
Nice one. Here's the funny thing. I don't think much has really changed. I first wrote the first iteration of the article, Hugging and Wrestling with Israel, was in 2004. And even back then, the challenge in the community was A, to take it on board in any way but also the ability to hold onto the word and. And pretty early on it became interpreted as hugging or wrestling. And one does one or the other. I always thought it was something about American football, you know, that you have defense or offense and you don't have midfield players like we do in what you call soccer. back in 2004 and 2005, what seemed to be the challenge was that the learner was unable to hold, and the parent and the teacher was unable to hold critique as a form of connection. That critique was always seen as, well, we further went into the image of if we're talking wrestling and hugging, so you can't do wrestling from far away. And a wrestler is not the referee who's pointing from outside.
And also if you're wrestling, then the chances are you're both critiquing and being critiqued. A wrestler can lose their footing as well. I'm, you know, I would love to say that having written that article and having done the wonderful work with Makom, which was at the Jewish agency and together with Johnny Ariel and the whole team that we changed, we changed nothing. I don't think much changed.
I think the main thing that changed is that Israel changed. And what's happened, and because I see Israel education has to do with what's happening in Israel and not just the history or the intentions of the place, Israel has shifted, was already shifting 20 years ago and has shifted further and further to an understanding of Jewish values, which are very different from what American Jewish values are.
I mean, that has been one of the funny things that always makes me giggle when I, with respect, when a lot of educators talk about Jewish values and I'm looking at them and I'm saying, you mean the Jewish values that Obama told you you have.
And let me introduce you to a few people in the government right now and hear their understanding of what Jewish values are. And they are as rooted in the texts as those who understand liberal values emerging from Jewish values. And Israel's changed a hell of a lot and therefore has increased the challenge for any kind of connection when when Jews in America understand themselves as holding a set of, having a moral stance on many, many things which the majority of Israelis do not hold. They have a very different stance. And by the way, they also have a critique of American Jewry. It's fun stuff.
Amitai Fraiman
It's always fun stuff. It's always fun stuff.
Laura Novak-Winer
Well, I would also say that American Jews have changed, right? Like being Jewish, being Jewish in America has changed over and continues to change. And we're not in a very happy place at the moment. It's very hard to be Jewish in America at the moment. So, and I think that that is also informing this moment that we're in.
Robbie Gringras
Totally.
Laura Novak Winer
And that there are values that everybody, whether in Israel or here, we're trying to live out that we're seeing our intention with each other. People are navigating how to live in those tensions and figuring out which values they want to prioritize over others. And that's part of the tension that we see in the communities.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, so we're seeing, you know, America has changed, Israel has changed, Israelis have changed, American Jews have changed. You know, I have some questions around, similar to where we --
Robbie Gringras
You haven't changed much Amitai, you look exactly the same.
Amitai Fraiman
(Laughter) What I was going to say -- and this connects the beginning of the conversation though, right? Like there's this assumption that, you know, and we go back to this and I remember even sitting as a rabbinical student, wasn't part of a, this track. took us to AIPAC and for the policy conference, it was very, very weird to be an Israeli at AIPAC. And it was really mind boggling in many, many ways. But one of the things that I kept on struggling with, honestly, and this, think has, you know, something that's like a througline here is like this idea that it's a values based.
We love to talk about the values based connection, but the value like simply, you know, I'm not the expert in like, do you, what's the value, but like even the difference in love and knowing is already a, an evolution of our understanding. Right? So like, if it's not about, like the is the motivation around, we really need to be in a connection or in a conversation because we have shared values? Is that really the motivation? Or is there something that's deeper that motivates us? Because the way Laura was talking about Ahavat Yisrael, Right? Like for most people, Ahavat Israel, course, Israel is the country, but we know that Israel refers to a whole set of things that isn't just a country, right? The land, the people, the Hula. And so, so the question then is, right, if the challenge is coming up around this perception of shared values, okay, then, and this can go in two ways, but let's start with one, which is if it's not in the shared values, how do we then talk about a relationship?
That's part one. And then related to that is then what is the back to the goals and why are we even invested in this in this relationship and educating about Israel and this whole approach of Israel education. So, Robbie, I'm going start with you this time because I started Laura twice and I'm keeping track up here for now.
Robbie Gringras
I've never really thought it was about values. But being a cynical British and Israeli, I tend to be more cynical about that sort of stuff. But also because it's not how I've understood Jewish peoplehood ever. And it's not I've understood Torah, to be honest. Maybe I have this, do they call it constructionist kind of approach?
What I read in a text says a lot more about me than it does necessarily about the text. And so we'll find the values that we're looking for quite often, or we'll emphasize the values that we're avoiding. And I believe that Jewish peoplehood has to be about, let's call it community. And in communities -- not virtual communities, but in real life communities -- you've got different generations, you've got different opinions, you've got different lifestyles, you have very different, I believe, or let's put it like this, that what if we were to say that Jewish peoplehood is a value in and of itself? And then what we're looking at is a clash between values rather than a choice.
Right? And that the moment we say that a Jewish community or a togetherness or a belonging of the Jewish people is of value in itself, then we're automatically going to be dealing with juggling, struggling with tensions between values in order to remain in community. But the moment we start saying that being Jewish or being Israeli or being a human being is based only and solely on what I think is the right thing to do, we narrow ourselves, we narrow our existence and we narrow our connections to other people. so my belief is that the value stuff gets in the way. And so I think that the way to go would be to be pushing for the value of, I'll tell you another value, which rarely comes up in the values conversation.
Laura Novak- Winer
Mm.
Robbie Gringras
Self preservation, security, right? That's a value too. And quite often in the conversations, for example, about Israel and in particular over the last 19 months, that's one of the values which is also at play. Quite apart from the values deleter, which is called fear, which is something that both communities are dealing with now. So yeah. ID value values.
Amitai Fraiman
No, it's good that... Yes.
Laura Novak Winer
You're challenging me, Robbie, in a good way, because --
Robbie Gringras
With love, you know that.
Laura Novak-Winer
Of course, always! Both as a Jewish educator and as a rabbi, my core...
Robbie Gringras
boy, I've blown it.
Laura Novak Winer
My why for why I do this is because I believe that Judaism offers guidance to us on how we live our lives. Right. And to me, that's about not only about studying history and our texts to see how our ancestors lived their lives and learning from them, but also around values. But that, you know, what our people did when they were settling the land of Israel, both in the Tanakh and in the 1930s and 40s, right? And today are all been, is all sort of grounded in values. So you're challenging me to think about what does it actually mean to be taking values out of the equation.
Robbie Gringras
Especially if we're in a non-orthodox world, right? Because if I were to speak to any orthodox Jew, and certainly ultra-orthodox Jew, again, they'd certainly agree with you that being Jewish is a way to live your life, and a guidance for the right way to live your life. But they've got different ways of gauging that.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, I think what's interesting here to further unpack, mean, do, we're this specific, as much as I love this conversation, and then I do. And we're talking about like Israel education. I want to steer back there slowly, we'll get back to that. But to this point of values, I think that, Robbie, to your point, and Laura, this is where I want to get back to this question about like, know, the values that drive us or the way we're supposed to live. If you ask the Orthodox or the Ultra-Orthodox, there's a there's a there is a theological arc to the to the values. The values will lead to something, right? When, what, how, fine. But there is a there is an arc. And so the question then, you know, not not not to put Laura on the spot here of like unpacking the whole theological worldview and whatever, but but but narrowing it down to like to even Israel education, okay? So to know, a lipa de lora, right? nerochita. Okay, so there is a reason to do Israel education because of the values. So what is the value there if indeed we're not going live there, we're not going to be part of that community, and we don't have a lot of family there at this point. I not me. I'm saying somebody, not anyone in this column in So what are the values that drive there? So back to what is the purpose, goal. Okay, so why?
Laura Novak-Winer
I mean, I think actually to go back to what Robbie said earlier, I think that peoplehood is a value, right? We are a global Jewish community and related to that, either we're all mishpacha, we're all family and we care about each other and we should be present for and with each other. Or we, you know, talk about Klal Yisrael, know, all Kol Yisrael Aravim Zebaze, right? We're all responsible for each other. That we have a -- whether we live there or not, we should be caring about the Israeli, the people who are our family, our Jewish family in Israel, and, care about the enterprise, the Jewish enterprise of the state of Israel, because it is part of us, but that gets to me and my, that's part of me and my theology, right? You said you weren't going to ask me to go there, but I'm going there.
Amitai Fraiman
You're happy. I'm game for a theological conversation. Just afraid.
Laura Novak-Winer
I'm just going to go there, right? Like, it's so interesting that the last, you know, 19 months have put, have invited or required or demanded of so many of us to really examine what Israel means to each of us, whether we are in Israel or anywhere else in the world. And for me, it's been a huge sort of new understanding about my connection to the history of the Jewish people and the land. And it's been a huge theological sort of evolution for me to say like, yeah, like I actually believe that like God gave me this land, me, the Jewish people, this land, and we have a history there. And that doesn't mean that it should only be ours, that we also share it with other people. And they should have a right to live there as well. Now we're getting into politics, but not necessarily, right?
Amitai Fraiman
Not necessarily, no, that could be true.
Laura Novak-Winer
So to me, that's been like, as I've been thinking about this process of what is Yiddiyat Yisrael mean and defining it for the world, I'm also been going through my own personal process of what does knowing Israel mean for me? And that theological component has been a big piece. So I don't know how I got there, but I think that I'll just leave it there. Yeah.
Amitai Fraiman
No, were, I'm Robbie, just to say that in a way, so maybe make sure that I understand and bring it back to Robbie and that let him have a chance to respond to some of that and the questions at the top is basically saying, you know, because the question was, if it is from a values perspective that there's a reason for this education, then from your perspective, your approach and yourself and also in your roles, when you educate about Yediyah Ta'arets and about the connection, yes, it's because we value that there's a value of being, of holding that mindset, living in that consciousness of being part of a global people. And that means including that, you know, Israel, Israelis, what's going on there. And, you know, this is kind of like the October 7 impact. And one of them is that like it forced you and other educators from your perspective to contend with some deeper questions. And so that adds also like, yes, there is a theological element here.
Laura Novak-Winer
Right.
Amitai Fraiman
that kind of ties into all of that. That's, yeah, that's, yeah, Robbie. So, okay, good. I'm, right. So Robbie, so they're just like the, yes, respond to Laura and what brought that out for you as well. But just the question that I asked her, and you're right, and the values, if the values is the driver, I know for you, you'd be value values as a proud British Israeli or Israeli Brit. I don't know what the, where the hyphen is. The and, the or. Yeah, so, but there is, know, so if I heard you correctly, you were saying that's the community, the being able to sit in community together is the value and that includes, it will inevitably include folks you disagree with in different life experiences and age-wise, etc. And therefore, we can educate around that as well. Is that a correct assumption? And if not, correct me please.
Robbie Gringras
That's certainly an element of it. I think there's also a practical element. This is the research that Alex Pomsen et al, I think he wasn't alone in doing this, but one of the research that was done prior to a good few years ago, looking at day school alumni, and finding of surprising correlation between a connection to Jewish people who had done a connection to Israel and that one feeds the other in both directions. And I think that that's that's quite that's I think that's at the heart of of the work that we're doing as they order in order to understand who I am as a Jew in the world. At the very least, I need to take on board all the Jews in the world and at least half of them are in Israel, quite apart from any connection to the land.
I'm not sure about my theology, so I'm not sure that God gave us the land, but I am sure that my story says that. And I and my people have been living that story for the last 2,000 years. But again, I'm not even sure that values are the right word. And the reason why I'm saying that is because there's something about finding the why or the choosing the values or prioritizing which emphasizes choice, right? Which is a very American thing and it's fantastic. And I'm not sure that all of Judaism is about choice. And I'm going back to Soloveitchik who talks about Goral or Yehud. It's either our fate or our destiny, but it's not something that we've necessarily chosen. I think the relationship of American Jews to Israel is not something that they've necessarily chosen. That connection is there whether they want it or not.
And last 19 months have shown that you are connected to what's going on Israel, like it or not. Your choice is the attitude towards it or the way in which you want to understand it or gain knowledge of it. But at the end of the day, it's not choosing. And I think that that's, I remember, think it was Rabbi David Ingbur several years ago, was talking about how anti-Semitism is the greatest challenge to this understanding of Judaism that it's based on my values that I choose, because antisemitism is not something we choose. And yet it's part of who we are. And so I think that there's something deeper, maybe it's theological, maybe it's something else, but I think that the connection to Israel, it is. And then the question is more what's the nature of it? Do I reject it? Do I hate it? Like all parts of myself that I might inherit.
And all parts of my family and all parts of the people that I'm connected to like it or not. And then it's yeah That's where I'm at. Well today anyway, I'll probably change my mind tomorrow
Amitai Fraiman
That's good. Yeah. That's fine today. Today recording. We'll have a follow up at some point. But I really like I really appreciate that. In that distinction you're making about choice, I do think, by the way, and it is impossible that for me, I don't know me at some point, but it's hard for me to imagine. But nobody else has thought about this at any point. But I think there's a huge misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the chosenness of the Jewish people.
Because I think that in Hebrew the Amah Nivkharr, it's a passive, it's Savil. It's actually about the removal of choice. It wasn't the Amah Ocher, it's Amah Nivkharr. No one asked us. And it's not about... We developed the whole theology of separateness and chosenness as an elevation. But for me it's like, no, we just didn't choose this. Like it's just is, as Rabbi said. It can't be that this is like some... I'm the first... Son of Olim, like how strong is my understanding of Biblical Hebrew, right? But like this idea of am nifchal, it's like, no. Yeah, choice, Exactly, exactly. And I got that from that, right? The Hartman distinction of the choosing and the chosen. Like, obviously nifchal, that's what it is. Anyway, but that's not the sidetrack, but the point saying that like, how does that inform it? If we're not asked if it's really not, if our agency around at least the...
Robbie Gringras
The idea that it's taking away choice is very nice. We are not the choosing people. We are the chosen.
Amitai Fraiman
-- the existence of the relationship, right? I think that's a nice way to look at it, like how much we build or just let it be is an interesting perspective. And so it brings us back again, like, so how do we educate around that, right? We're assuming then that there is an existing relationship, like it or not, right? It's like you can turn off the volume, but if you're in -- the, you know, once you choose to be part of the community and actively live, right. And think this goes back to something else that may be in the background here of like the goal of living a fulfilling Jewish life. And that includes a variety of things, right. Of being a civic, civically engaged Jewish human in the world. But to the extent that we make the choice to start upping that volume of our relationship and our connection. And so the, the, ah, that part of the education allows us to kind of explore the elements of it and chart our own path. Is that a fair kind of like statement to me? Do feel that's reflective of where we are in this moment in this conversation? Yeah, okay. Okay, good. So I want to not change gears a little bit. Laura kind of opened this up a little bit. Robbie touched upon this, but I do think we should zero in for a second, you know, the October 7, you know, the moment or the impact of October 7 on your work and on your perspective. And what you're seeing in your colleagues when it comes to bringing Israel to the classroom or teaching about it and its people.
Laura Novak-Winer
I think we're really at this inflection. I mean, we're at an inflection point in so many ways. But I really think we are at this point of, I really appreciate your metaphor of the volume, right? Because, and I said this a little bit earlier, but I'm going to come back to it, that I feel like culturally as an American Jewish community, we've either been like, it's on or it's off.
Right? Either you love or you don't. And we've been like pushing people up against the wall on that and saying like, wait, you're not loving Israel. That's not loving Israel. And I feel like we're really at this point where we need to really look very closely at that and, and see how -- especially young people, right, because thinking about all of our high school students and college students, right, who've had it very, very hard, are actually expressing love, or expressing, I'm going to take the word out, take that back. They are expressing a connection to Israel and a vision for Israel without it being love. But rather being deep concern about Israel living up to what they wanted to live up to. And at the same time, also expressing fear about for themselves and fear for the all the residents of the region, the Jews and the Muslims and the Christians and the Druze and the citizens of Israel and the citizens of Gaza. And so it's not that their volume is off. It's actually high. It's on and it's very high.
but they're just not saying the things that the American Jewish community is like mainstream wants them to say, right? So this takes us back to the values. They're like, wait, you taught us that we are supposed to love all the human beings, welcome the stranger, right? Because we were once strangers in a strange land. And here we are, we're trying to be welcoming of all people and we're shown there are people in Israel who are not being welcoming. Right. So there, I feel like we are really at this inflection point and needing to really see what the binary has become and move away from it.
Amitai Fraiman
Robbie, from your perspective, October 7th, the way it impacted.
Robbie Gringras
Maybe this is just an Israeli perspective, but I have a feeling it isn't. think that, look, we're 19 months since the initial attack, and I think there have been two stages in Israel's response and in Jews' response to what Israel's been up to. On the one hand, there was the shock, horror, and response to the Hamas attack.
And now we're in a slightly different space in that the way in which we're conducting the fighting in Gaza and the reasons for it and the justifications for it are far more, I'm going to put it, are far more gray and unclear. And of course then with the lack of clarity comes the desperate need for far more clarity.
So think that that's one thing, but I suppose. I think that the challenge with Israel education since October 7th is that not everybody knew what Israel education was supposed to do before then. Now, so it's even worse, right? So for example, was Israel like birthright said? Was Israel supposed to be effectively a really effective way for teaching American Jews how to be American Jews?
Was a visit to Israel in order to strengthen your Jewish identity or to strengthen your understanding of this different place? And if that's not clear, as in, I learning about Israel to learn about me? Or am I learning about Israel to learn about Israel? Then I've still got the question now, only as you said, the volume's up and it's just hitting distortion. I think that we're also, that there's a -- It feels like there's a lot of doubling down to what in my head never worked before and I still haven't understood it, how it's supposed to work now. I'd never understood how Israel advocacy was ever a form of education. And I've also found it hard to see evidence that it's ever actually achieved what it's supposed to achieve, right? So I think a little bit like going on-- No, I'm not going to say this, it feels like sometimes people go on demonstrations in order to bring about strategic change. And sometimes we go on demonstrations in order to go on demonstrations because it's something that at least feeds me. Okay. There's a feeling of solidarity when I'm together with other people shouting about something. And I'm not clear what Israel advocacy does because if it was supposed to reduce or reduce Israel hatred or connect, well, it just keeps failing larger every time. An element of that is again, is Israel and what Israel is doing, but an element of it is it's a strange form of education or it's a strange form of enculturation or building belonging and expect any. I don't know what's changed.
I've got one big question that remains and in our work, Abi and myself with For the Sake of Argument, our big challenge now is we're trying to work out young people, young Jews in the United States, how many of these people are now absolutely convinced that Israel is a bad place and a bad idea? All right, as in how many of these people are anti-Zionist in the pure, clear, conscious sense. They're clearly louder than they ever were before. I have a feeling they're larger than ever they were ever before, but it's very difficult to clarify that. Whenever research is being done, always, it seems to me, and again, I'm not a great expert in this and I haven't been looking at a lot of the research, but it seems like...
Every time there's research which says, you know, there's about 20, 30 % of American Jews of American college Jewish college age who are anti-Zionists now, 20, 30%. And that's always either poo-pooed or the methodology is critiqued, but it seems to be a number which is coming up more and more. And if that's the case, then it feels like things have to change radically. And right now, sometimes I fear that we are-- You know, I've been in the game for over 20 years, as you know, and it's not like we're shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. It's like the horse has been gone for years. It's had foals. The barn fell down three years ago and we're still trying to shut the door. I fear that the game has changed, has totally changed. But I'm not sure what the numbers are. It could be that I'm just hearing these noise that I'm hearing the extremes much louder than they ever were before.
Or it could be that the middle ground really has emptied out and that there are more at either extreme of the wrestle or huggle or --
Amitai Fraiman
You knew what you meant. Laura, do you have thoughts on that part of Robbie's (comments)?
Laura Novak-Winer
Well, I would say that education, that advocacy is not education. They are very different things. Advocacy might be something that a learner decides to take on as a result of their education, but it is not necessarily, I don't think it should be the outcome of our Israel education. That's what Israel education of the 1960s and 70s and 80s was about, was a lot about advocacy. but I think we need to really separate them.
Look, the Jewish community was, the American Jewish community was never a hundred percent in consensus around Israel, around politics, around the government. And yes, it is louder now because it's, I think part of it is this younger generation is, feels more empowered to be about their, to be more vocal about their disagreements. And so it's not as sort of in the closet. But I totally agree with you that we're at a really difficult point and the, yes, the horse is miles away and the barn is burnt down and it's too late. Not too late, it's not too late. We're behind the game. We're behind and we need to, I don't know how we're gonna catch up.
Amitai Fraiman
So I want to pose a question to both of you because of this metaphor of the barn and the time horizon and whatnot, just to play a little bit of devil's advocate. If the horse has run so far off and had its own foals, at what point do we say, and the barn, we're rebuilding, but we're not rebuilding to chase that 30%, but to figure out what we're doing with the 70%.
And like, how do we not like, is like not too late, too late for some people to, it's not too late for the whole Jewish people. It's like we, we've had these moments of falling off from our general consensus of the community. not the first time it's always painful. It's not something we advocate for, God forbid, or, or, or, you know, push for, but there are moments, is it a moment of inflection saying, you know what, like there are things, that are for the sake of preservation, which is also a value -- that we are not, just, there is only so much that we can do. The door will always be open, right? But we're not gonna chase you to bring you back to this farm, this barn that we're building. We'll build a better this time, we'll be more mindful, we'll figure out how we can kind of eliminate that moving forward. But if you're out there, like, we can't send out cowboys to, you whatever. I don't know why we're using this, too many analogies, I don't feel comfortable kind of developing. But you know what I mean? Like, we're not gonna, you know.
Laura Novak-Winer
So, so my concern, my greater concern is not the third, the whatever that percentage is that we don't know who are of young people who are saying they're anti-Zionist because I'm not actually sure that they're so clear on that. And I actually think that there is a desire to, this is only anecdotal, right? But maybe it's also hope.
Right. That there's still a desire to engage, right? They are still Jews. They're identifying as Jews. They want to be part of a Jewish community. They want to have these conversations in meaningful ways. My bigger concern is the people who are closing the doors on those conversations with those young people and saying that like Ahavah Yisrael is the only way to do it. And we have to be advocators, you know, no matter what. And because though right now those are the people who hold the purse, hold the purse strings and are leading our institutions and are shutting out and pushing, pushing those young people away. So I think that that's a yeah, go on.
Robbie Gringras
I think you're bang on. I think you're bang on Laura. think, I don't think it's a case of running after or not running after, but allow them to speak and to have conversations. Because at the end of the day, I'm going back to the barn. We need to decide, is this a Jewish barn or is this a Zionist barn? And does a Jewish home have to be a Zionist home? Is it possible to be a Jew and a member of the Jewish community who thinks that Israel is a bad idea. And that's something that the Jewish community has got to get really, really clear on before it starts deciding these are the mitnagdim or whoever and we're ruling them out of our world. I'm not sure that's something I want to do.
Amitai Fraiman
Yeah, I'm going to push a little bit more. Not because I don't because I agree with you. I just want to make sure that I'm in the right for the right reasons. But think but but but the counter argument, I'm not saying to write them off necessarily. Right. But is there is there like this like there's a strategic question like what is going to what is going to attract people into this to the Jewish enterprise? Right. What is going to what works like psychotic like psychologically, right? Are we incentivizing the wrong type of behaviors by doing so on a greater scale? It pays to be a critic because I'll get more attention, right? And those were bought in like, yeah, we'll take them for granted.
And then what does that do to the whole dynamic? That's, you know, that's part of it. I kind of think about being mindful of and of course not to write anybody off, but like to be clear about what are the, what are the things that we care about? I, I tend personally, I tend to agree with Robbie like this, you know, the distinction Zionists and Jewish -- You know, I fall squarely into the Jewish side of things. If I would, you know, the choice, you know, if I have to make a statement or whatever, but the point being that even within that, even, you know, let's use, like, we like to talk about the historic World Zionist Congress, there were anti-Zionist Jews that were in the thing, right? And they were, whatever. But there was a, at the time, was obviously very, very different. There wasn't a state that was much easier to argue against. But it was all -- The goal was self-preservation and the question was how do we achieve that? Right? And so now the question of self-preservation isn't one that we can kind of mitigate. So Zionism, know, so we also have to update what we mean when we say Zionism, Robbie, to your point, right? It's not no longer like, you know, there's this type and that type. Yes, but they all were working towards the same thing was about, you know, preserving and building, you know, a continued thriving Jewish community and what that would take. And now that we have...
Laura Novak-Winer
Right.
Amitai Fraiman
This vessel, this thing, what does that look like and how can we then figure out the boundaries of these conversations without, you know, like what is it like okay so what does it mean to be Jewish if you reject Israel you reject God the way we talk about God you reject the language you reject like so what are we so what is the aside from the you know the ish and the Jewish like what do we agree on right? Like you know where what are those things or you know Avraham Infeldt's you know the the stool all that stuff.
You know, so I'm going to push it like saying, yes, I don't want to push anybody out of the conversation. But how do we, and not to like, you know, part like splitting hairs of like the boundaries who's in his app, but like Israel education, if the goal is Yediyah, if we want people to be involved and engaged in this conversation moving forward. And if this is what we're dealing with, how do we kind of work in that direction?
Laura Novak-Winer
I think we have to actually define what we mean, right? Like, I appreciate the question. it, I think it's a fascinating question. Is it possible to be a Jewish home and not a Zionist home? Like, well, let's just define that. What do we mean by Zionist home and what do we mean by Jewish home? Right? Because what, how each of us defines that might actually be completely different. Right? So I think part of it is actually having the conversations about what do we mean by Zionist and what do we mean by Jewish and are they separate? Right? I mean, that's a lot of the conversation that I've had to have over the last 19 months with my non-Jewish friends when they say to me, are you a Zionist, Rabbi Laura? And I have to say, well, it depends on how you're defining Zionist, right? Because even our Zionists define Zionism differently.
Right? So.
I think it's about having the conversation, beginning with one way to do it is to begin by having, talking about what do we mean by Jewish and what do we mean by Zionist.
Amitai Fraiman
Robbie.
Robbie Gringras
I got like four thoughts. One is recently, Abby and I, we started doing these intergenerational arguments about Israel. And we would gather, we were in the San Francisco area mostly, and we were gathering intergeneration, basically under 30 and over 45, were the sort of two age groups. And we found -- So on that one there was something interesting because these were people who were chosen to come to these conversations, all right? So we weren't actually getting the rejectionists, okay? We were getting... And the main thing that happened in those arguments over what was going on in Israel is how relieved people felt when they left the room because they were able to have nuanced conversations.
And able to have arguments and differences about the place that they already feel connected to. And it may well be that we're still talking that that's the majority of people who are connected to Israel. And those people, especially now, need to be given space to address their questions about the place. Because there's no way even the person who is most in love with Israel doesn't have questions going in one direction or another direction. And our Israel education needs to have space for that.
Because I think that also this is point two, Israel education needs to give respect to the learner. I personally don't believe you need to do everything that the learner wants, but you need to at least give them respect, which also applies to talking to the folks if we're saying the rejectionists, or either the rejectionists of Israel as a Jewish state or the rejectionists of Israel as a democratic state. Either of those extremes that I would say are not Zionist. Give them respect that they are human beings, and that they have thoughts and they think things through and that their thoughts can be part of our conversation, even though they may not necessarily be part of my core curriculum. The third thing is another sort of thing that I once tried out and I think it's probably still of value is that what if your curriculum was asking the question, why is Israel important to the Jewish people?
Eight? Or why is Israel of great significance to the Jewish people, right? Good or bad, look at the numbers. We're still talking round about 80 % of Jews around the world say that Israel is extremely important to them. Why? And then I, as a learner, can assess whether the reasons they think it's important are the reasons that I agree with, that it speaks to me, but that it's a question mark, almost like it's a historical or it's a mystery.
And the fourth idea was something that I gained from a friend of mine, Jonathan Kessler from an organization called Heart of the Nation, where he talks about having people fall in love with the problem. I think his take is that young people want to fix things. They feel that the world needs to be made better. And the moment you get someone to fall in love with the problem,you have to learn more about it. If you see Israel as a problem, fall in love with that problem. What are you going to do about it? How are we going to solve this? What's going to emerge from it? If you want that, you really want there to be peace. So which side are you on and how are you going to achieve? And I think that there's something interesting in that as well.
Laura Novak-Winer
I think it's interesting that you raised the question about why is Israel important to the Jewish people? Because that has been the a perennially missing answer in Israel education, right? Barry Hazan writes about this multiple times that, right, we tell learners that Israel is important, but we don't tell them why. And to be able to answer that either individually or collectively as an institution, right? I've said this to synagogues that I've worked with or schools that I've worked with. You have to answer this question for yourself. Why is Israel education is important for your learners? What's the answer you want to give to them? And then also appreciate the fact that we have different answers around the Jewish community to that, different answers to that question.
Robbie Gringras
That's the cool way of getting away with not having an answer. If you just say, yeah, why is it?
Amitai Fraiman
So let's end with that. I think this will be, Laura, I mean, you can thank yourself for this. Jokes aside, I do think it's important. look, think that, first of all, thank you. This has been incredibly enriching and stimulating. And there's so much more we can talk, but we are at an hour plus. And I want to be mindful of your time and everything. So thank you. So I do want to end with this question because I think it's important. As we're thinking about this, I do think and that Israel has replaced, uh, has taken a theological place in the American Jewish community psyche. Um, that, that this is why there's no, you can't ask it because you can, you can be heretic around God and belief and practice and all that stuff. But you, once you, you can also be a heretic on this. think people are afraid this is like the rise of the Israel committees and shuls. There's a whole things that happened in America that we didn't cover, but that's my, my sense of this whole thing. So I do want to bring it back. I think this will be an interesting kind of way for people to tie into this conversation also and have them think about it is really like why do you, know, Robbie, why do you think it's important? And Laura, why do you think it's important? Why is Israel important in someone's Jewish identity?
Robbie Gringras
Damn, you got me to speak first.
Amitai Fraiman
Yes, I did.
Robbie Gringras
Why is Israel important in Jewish people's identity?
What is it that line about the unexamined life? If I had my druthers, I would say that the main goal of Israel education is to make sure every Jew seriously contemplates making aliyah. Even if they never do, to contemplate the possibility of a different way of being a Jew in the world. I think that Israel offers that opportunity in all sorts of different ways, both geography, sociology, theology, ideology, to imagine, to understand that the way I am Jewish is not the only way that I can be Jewish and in particular in the United States to be a prosperous but now slightly fragile minority is not the only way to be a Jew. So I think that's a valuable why. To contemplate how your life might be different. That's my answer for today.
Amitai Fraiman
It's good. For today, it's good. We'll take it.
Laura Novak Winer
I love that. I appreciate and love that answer, Robbie. And you actually are very close to my answer, is, right? Not only, right, I said earlier that part of my why as a Jewish educator and as a rabbi is because Judaism offers guidance for how we live our lives. And I think Israel is part of that puzzle. And it is about
figuring out who we are as Jews and how we want to live our lives in the world. And we each have to, whether it's the question of Aliyah or the question of Hebrew fluency or the question of, I don't know, just going on a visit and figuring out what is it that informs who I am as a Jew in the world and in relationship with other Jews in the world and in relationship with the rest of the world.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so with that, we're gonna wrap up this episode. Thank you, Laura, so much for joining us. Robbie, thank you so much. I had a lot of fun. I learned a lot, really, and I truly appreciate everything that you're doing in the field of Israel and Jewish education for the community and wherever you're meeting your students and learners. Really, I appreciate it and I appreciate you joining us. So thank you, thank you, and I look forward for future conversations.
Laura Novak-Winer
Thank you.
Robbie Gringras
Was great. Lovely spending time with the two of you.
Laura Novak-Winer
Todah Raba, lovely to be with you.
Amitai Fraiman
Thank you, thank you.
