Can Hope Win in the Middle East? The Vision Behind MENA2050—The Z3 Podcast
In this episode of the Z3 Podcast, host Rabbi Amitai Fraiman sits down with Eli Bar-On, founder of MENA2050 and a former senior legal advisor in the Israeli government, and Wydiane Djaidi, a Moroccan lawyer and international development expert, to explore a bold vision for the future of the Middle East and North Africa. Together, they delve into how MENA2050 is bringing together Israelis, Palestinians, Moroccans, Iranians, and others from across the region, not to argue politics, but to collaborate on urgent issues of climate change, gender equality, food security, and mutual understanding. In a region too often associated with conflict, these conversations offer a powerful reminder that there are people across borders who are ready to focus on building, not breaking. This episode sheds light on the quiet efforts happening behind the scenes, projects and relationships that offer real hope for a more stable and connected Middle East. Listen in for a glimpse of what’s possible when we shift the conversation from what’s broken to what we can create together.
About Our Guests
Eli Bar-On is the CEO and Head of the Executive Committee of MENA2050. He served in various senior legal positions in the Israeli government. He was also a professor at the Israel National Defense College, with a focus on matters of national security, strategy, and international relations. Eli has provided expert presentations to high-level delegations throughout the world. He also led strategic international dialogues and lectured at preeminent academic institutions around the world. Upon his retirement as a civil servant, Eli co-founded and was the CEO of a start-up company dealing with wireless optical communication. Eli has a Bachelor of Laws (LL.B.) degree and an Executive Master of Business Administration (E.M.B.A.) degree (cum laude) from Tel Aviv University and a Master’s degree in Political Science (M.A.) (cum laude) from Haifa University.
Wydiane Djaidi is a Moroccan lawyer, an international development professional and a proud member of MENA2050. She was born and raised in Casablanca and is admitted to the Casablanca Bar Association. She holds a Master degree in International Business Law from the University of Brussels (ULB) and a Master degree in International Public Law and Transnational Crimes from the University for Peace (UN Mandated). Wydiane has worked for over 5 years for the United Nations (UN) in Turin (Italy), in Vienna (Austria) and in Rabat (Kingdom of Morocco) on the prevention and countering of terrorism and transnational organized crime. She spent most of her time at the UN working at the headquarters in Vienna supporting governments in the implementation of the UN Convention on Transnational Organized Crime (Palermo Convention) and have supported in that framework the drafting and elaboration of many UN reports that are currently publicly available. Wydiane recently moved back to Casablanca, working there as a lawyer and international development consultant. She is also deeply passionate about inter-faith dialogue, gender equality, art and culture.
Video Transcript
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (00:08)
Hello and welcome to the Z3 Project podcast. I'm Amitai Fraiman, the founding director of the Z3 Project and this is our podcast. In today's episode, I had the great pleasure to host two visionaries from MENA2050. It's a nonpartisan initiative shaping a cooperative future in the MENA region. Our first guest was Wydiane Djaidi, a lawyer. She was born and raised and based in Morocco. She's an international development professional. She's worked for the UN, focusing on counterterrorism and transnational crime. Today she's very much focused on
gender equality and the development of women involvement and roles in the region. And Eli Bar-On, he's a former senior legal advisor in the Israeli government. He's the CEO and founder of MENA2050. He has deep expertise in national security and strategy, international relations. He was also a speaker at our conference in 2021, so you can catch him in our archives there. The conversation was really fascinating and inspiring. We covered a variety of topics, their personal journeys, what brought them to working in this type of organization, the theory of change.
how they are looking to create impact in the real world, who they work with, who's inside this vast network of professionals and personals from different backgrounds, both from culturally, the countries they're from, their professions, and of course they give us real life examples and looking ahead how we can create hope in this moment. For me it was a very meaningful conversation, it was inspiring, it really gave me real examples and a glimpse into the work of a broad grassroots network of activists
in the MENA region who are committed to laying the foundations for prosperous and peaceful future for all of us. by building coalitions and working in pressing needs and shared issues across geographies and cultural differences and conflict and stagnation, you know, it was really, really, really meaningful, especially in this time of so much disruption. It was great to hear and learn from people committed to building ⁓ a better future for us all. So thank you for joining us for this episode of the Z3 Project podcast. I'm Amitayi Fraiman, the founding director of the Z3 Project, and I hope you enjoy listening to this episode. And please follow
us for more. You know, our social media, sign up for our email list to get to hear about events and content that we're releasing. Currently we are, you know, in the middle of our Bridge Builder Awards, the second year, $10,000 reward. So make sure to stay up to date with the voting process on our website. You know, there's so much coming down the pipe for Z3. So again, thank you for joining us for this episode in which we hear from two visionary leaders and activists from MENA2050. This is Z3 Project podcast. Have a great day and enjoy.
this episode.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (02:49)
Eli, Wydiane, thank you for joining us. It's a great pleasure to have you on the Z3 Podcast. You know, we have these conversations online. It's in a way an extension of the panels that we have at our conference. It's a way to model conversation, to expose people to organizations and individuals and ideas that they might not come across on the regular day to day. And it's a great honor, you know, to have you. Eli, kind of having you back, I'd say, given that you spoke at our conference a couple of years ago.
Wydiane, maybe one day you can come too. ⁓ But really, thank you so much for your time and for joining us today on this episode.
Eli Bar-On (03:26)
Thank you so much for having us.
Wydiane Djaidi (03:26)
Thank you for having us.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (03:28)
Yeah, it's great. So we're going to jump right in. You know, I think in a good place to start is really to give people a little bit of a background and, you know, just to level set the conversation, you know, who you are and the work that you do at MENA2050. And just, you know, if want to share this, how it came about, you're the founder of it. We've gotten you joined it later and just kind of give a context background, what moved you just to get us going.
Eli Bar-On (03:56)
Thank you. So again, I appreciate the opportunity to speak at your podcast. And I remember very fondly the annual conference I attended at 2021 and the working group that led to this conference a few years back. So I worked for the Israeli government for 25 years. I was practicing law for the IDF.
And then when I retired, I founded a startup company dealing with laser communications. So I will get my credentials as an Israeli. Otherwise, you're not Israeli unless you have a startup. But when COVID started, I was looking for doing something meaningful ⁓ also to dedicate part of my time for a good cause. And I wanted to dedicate this time for connecting people from across the region. My thoughts were...
Both my parents were born in Baghdad in Iraq. They were expelled with almost the entire Jewish community after 26 centuries in that country in the early 50s. So I grew up at home that was in many ways, I always said, when you go outside, you're in Israel. When you go back home, you're in Baghdad. So in many ways I would say I'm culturally Arab. So I'm Jewish, I'm Israeli, but there's also something in me that's Arab.
that's Iraqi, that's Middle Eastern. And I always felt that we need to connect across the region, that Jews and Christians and Muslims and other people have lived in this part of the world for many, many centuries. And we've had good relations, we had prosperous societies, and we need to work on that to create a regional Renaissance that will allow it to happen.
that will allow my country to be part of this region to contribute what it can to be contributed to benefit from the benefits of the region. And this is how it came about with two other co-founders, one from Israel and one from Tunisia.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (06:09)
And so if the idea is to kind of promote ⁓ better understanding and hope across the region, maybe give us a sense of kind of like, what does the work look like? a little bit? And then Wydiane, I want to hear from you also. It's not every day, it's not typical. Hopefully there'll be more and more of this, but this cross, this I'd say regional collaboration is something that has been thankfully accelerated in the past couple of years. But certainly as someone who's grown up in Israel as well, this was a very far dream growing up.
from my perspective and so, know, curiously, you're on your side of it, but maybe give us a little bit more in there of kind of what does that actually look like?
Eli Bar-On (06:46)
Yeah, thank you. I'll, I mean, the idea was we were asking ourselves as the three co-founders, what if we go and pitch the idea to people we know from across the region, influential figures from across the region, all the way from Morocco to Iran. We want to hold sessions. We want to bring together a group of people from across the region, sons of the region, as I call them.
who will discuss not the politics of the region, not the conflicts of the region. Of course, as an Israeli, I'm very passionate about solving the conflict with the Palestinians. But there are so many other conflicts in the region, Yemen and Sudan and Libya and Syria and Iraq, so many of them. We said, let's put it aside for a moment. Let's focus on all the areas that are crucial for the development of the region. And let's work on preparing the region for
the next generation, make it a stable, prosperous, hopeful region for the next in one generation from now, hence 2050. And we said, let's how about talking about climate change, energy transition, food security, education, women's empowerment. There are so many challenges and opportunities that we can discuss and collaborate and push for more ⁓ regional cooperation, regional integration as a tool to help real people in
their ⁓ everyday life to have better life. This region is a hotspot. Climate change is a global concern, but in this region more than in other areas. You don't have any regional group dealing with this challenge. How do we prepare as a region for this challenge? We thought this is something that we should discuss. How do we bring more
In many of the societies in the region, have half the society, women, that is not as involved as it should be in promoting the society, being a ⁓ crucial, contributing part of the society. Why don't we discuss it? Why don't we allow people to learn from each other? So that was the idea behind it. And the reactions we got from people...
we were talking about it from across the region were just amazing. Everybody said, count me in, I want to be part of this group. And today it's the biggest network of people, hundreds of people from each and every Arab country, no exceptions, Israel, Turkey and Iran. So this is something really unique that people want to connect with other people from across the region and discuss with them how they can give their children a better future.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (09:31)
So if I can sum it up, if there's an approach of kind of like what we call maybe in Israel, either minimizing or trying to reduce the areas of conflict, what you're doing is the opposite. You are expanding the areas of potential collaboration, cooperation and infusing hope. It's saying there is these things, but there's so much more that can kind of dictate the direction of the region. And as opposed to only focusing on this thing, we can focus on many, many other areas where we share much more.
and work across traditional differences and boundaries to kind of expand the areas where we can find agreement and alignment.
Eli Bar-On (10:10)
Yeah, and I'll just add, I think that the theory of change is that when you have like wide circles of people, so many people involved in that, and showing success in so many other areas, showing like finding where is the common ground that will allow everyone to prosper, to thrive, to succeed. This is also a very ⁓ impactful tool that will also allow us to solve conflicts. Okay, so.
many of the people I will call them to be involved in all sorts of circles of conflict resolution. will say, listen, this is not a MENA2050 project, but it's important that we be there. So it's not, we're not ignoring those conflicts. None of us is naive. I've been in the government for 25 years. I know how important it is to deal with that, but it's just a way to do things differently.
that will protect us from the conflict and will allow us to be impactful in other ways.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (11:12)
That's very, very inspiring. So, Wydiane, how did you get to this work? Like, I didn't grow up in the same context as Eli. Obviously, my parents are not from Baghdad. That might be shocking to you all. But in a similar way, know, first generation and the difference between outside and inside. And so a lot of that resonates and is familiar to me in some ways. But Wydiane, you're from Morocco and it's a slightly different context. And so if you can share with us your motivations and what brought you to this.
this work.
Wydiane Djaidi (11:43)
Sure, thank you. So I basically came back to Morocco two years ago after seven years of being abroad. I was working for the United Nations in Italy and in Vienna and Austria, mainly on counter-terrorism and then on the implementation of the Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime. And there, so I got to get to the UN at a very young age and I got to see countries that were having...
conflicts outside but that would still gather in the same room and to talk about common issues that they had I was working on the countering of transnational organized crime so countries that would be on wars outside but still had common issues on transnational organized crime so they would still gather in the same room and talk even though they didn't have any diplomatic ties for example.
So coming back to Morocco two years ago, I discovered MENA2050 online very randomly through LinkedIn. And I went to the website and I was very amazed to see that there were people from the whole region that were part of this network. And I really appreciated the ⁓ vision of it. And as Eli was saying, the fact that we're not tackling directly... ⁓
politics but more regional development and this is also a way to gather then people and I think it's a first it could be even a tool to make people talk and then to like solve other issues later on. I was really impressed by the vision of it and that's why I thought I would join the network and I was also from another ⁓ perspective.
personal one besides my work. I grew up in a country that is really a country of coexistence and peace and tolerance. I grew up myself with half of my friends in high school that were Moroccan Jews and the other ones Moroccan Muslims. So we really have this philosophy of coexistence and peaceful coexistence in us, in our blood. And this comes from really a long lasting history.
of this. So seeing that there were Israelis, Palestinians, Moroccans, Iranians, really people from the whole region in the MENA 2015 network really motivated me to join. it gave me, especially coming back from ⁓ these years of ⁓ work at the UN, coming back to my region and wanting to do things for my country and my region. And I think there is a better thing than having people from the region doing.
working for their regions. So I was really amazed by that work and I thought it would be great ⁓ to join the network.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (14:37)
That's great. you know, as you know, listening to what you're saying and as an Israeli, I, mean, I personally, it's bit different. My sister traveled to Morocco, so I had a little bit of a little bit more of an insight, but I would say that the public, the perception of, you know, the story that you're sharing here of growing up in an area that really elevates or, you know, that lives by this idea of coexistence is, where I sit, I'd say a very,
a very well kept secret, at least from a perception perspective. And I'm curious to hear a little bit more, like what does it look like in the day to day on the one hand? And two, how do we get, how do we continue to amplify these ideas so people can build trust? Cause I know that ⁓ often, you know, those perceptions are the barriers for potential collaboration and working together.
Wydiane Djaidi (15:28)
Sure, thank you. I think that, so first of all, maybe just to say a bit more about this in Morocco, because I mean, for us, it's very obvious and everyone knows it, but I can understand that it might not be known by everyone. ⁓ But this really comes like from a very long lasting history of, mean, Moroccan Jews has been here since forever. And my grandmother, for instance, was best fed by ⁓
Moroccan Jewish lady, they grew up in the same house. I really grew up with half of my friends, as I said, ⁓ Moroccan Jews. ⁓ We have really a particular, we think that this is ⁓ really like a richness in our country that we have this diversity and we really cherish it. There is also a lot that is being done and has been done towards history and that is still being done to protect this.
this cultural diversity even until now. ⁓ The advisor to our king, His Majesty Mohammed VI is a Moroccan Jew, André Azoulay. There's also Serge Berdugo that is an itinerary ambassador to the king. There is this beautiful museum that we have in Essaouira that I visited ⁓ last year. It's called the House of Memory Bayt Dakira that houses history of Moroccan Jews in
and it also has a synagogue that I visited also last year and it also hosts a center for studies about relations between Muslims and Jewish communities. it's really, we really have a lot of things going on. There was also this initiative that was over the past years to rehabilitate Jewish symmetries around Morocco. So there was around 170 cemeteries that were
rehabilitated as a way also to preserve the Jewish history. so really, and for us, we don't even think about Jews or Muslims, we're all Moroccans. And that's really how you feel when you come to Casablanca. So Casablanca is my hometown. And that's where you have ⁓ the biggest community of Jewish Moroccans, actually. And really, you don't feel any difference when you're here. We grew up together.
There is no Jew, there is no Muslim, there is just Moroccans. And that's what really gives me hope, I would say, about ⁓ the future and about ⁓ having this regional peace and tolerance between religions, even with our, I mean, through the whole region. And I wanted also to say something else, also that
since Morocco also joined the Abraham Accords two years ago. This is also a sign of really this national willingness to have the peace and coexistence that we have in our country also to our whole region. So I hope this gives more insights.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (18:35)
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah,
I know it's great. Yeah, please.
Eli Bar-On (18:38)
If I could add ⁓ Amitai on this, on Morocco, think Morocco is really a role model for coexistence and tolerance. And you see that, by the way, like when you meet Moroccan Jews across the world, well, of course here in Israel, but in many other places in France, in Canada, et cetera, you see how... ⁓
committed ambassadors they are for Morocco. They could be like, for some of them it's like already like fourth generation after their ancestors left the country, but still they will speak very fondly about Morocco with great love and admiration for the country, for the people of Morocco. They will only argue about which is the best city in the country, but other than that they really love the country.
And what I'm saying, they brought Morocco, for instance, in Israel, they brought Moroccan culture and food and everything into our country in such a unique way that I always claim that every Israeli is a little bit Moroccan. When I, like I told you, I'm Iraqi, okay, my parents came from Iraq. When I go to Morocco, I immediately feel at home because what I see there is the things I know from Moroccan Jews in Israel.
So this is remarkable. And if we could replicate this unique relationship to other parts of the region, the idea that people can work together, respect each other and create things together, we are good. And so whenever you are hopeless about something, just look at Morocco and breathe some fresh air of hope. This is something that each and every one of us should remember. And you could see that, by the way, in the World Cup,
Morocco has done very very well, you could see that both Israelis and Palestinians were cheering for the Moroccan team and you don't have many ⁓ areas in which Israelis and Palestinians will agree but they were cheering for the Moroccan team so it shows you how Morocco could be like ⁓ a perfect connector also.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (20:47)
That's that's yeah.
Wydiane Djaidi (20:47)
Yeah, and if I may add, if I may add just on
that. ⁓ Yeah, so I would say that what I personally learned from this growing up here and really it's something that just feels natural, but then you realize that it's not the same way everywhere in the world, and that's why we have to speak about these things. But ⁓ what I learned growing up is that we just respect each other's differences and it's actually a really
something that is a richness to have this and not something that should be seen as a bad difference or something that is negative, but rather something that we use to learn from each other. And I also got to see this from them going abroad and living in different countries and working with different people from the whole world and from different religions and countries and cultures at the UN. So you really have to understand that
There is no other way but to communicate and to learn from each other and to respect each other. It doesn't mean that I have to go your way or you have to come my way, but we can still sit together and talk and be friends and agree and disagree on other things and that's how life is. Difference shouldn't be a reason to not communicate or to not ⁓ sit together and collaborate together.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (22:12)
Yes, no, no, certainly. mean, one of the things that we, know, at Z3 and I mentioned this in my email, but also in our prep for this, but also generally speaking is exactly that point of, you know, it's not only that it's possible, it's necessary to sit across differences because that adds a richness and a ⁓ depth to everybody's experience. It also creates a much more resilient, you know, locally community and beyond a society where you can figure out how to collaborate and share, you know, in a common kind of a...
a positive or hopeful outlook for the future. want to ask for a second, I have a couple of questions that are coming to mind for me as I'm listening to both of you. And one is about the theory of change. Both Eli, you mentioned it briefly, Wydiane, you also said how it was inspiring to see coming from the UN, which is like maybe the most top, in many ways, of the prime examples of a top-down agency that goes and tries to dictate things for countries around the world with maybe positive intentions. We'll leave the UN out of this for a minute.
And, you were saying how this is much more for you, found meaning and it's, you know, it was inspiring and like actually people from the region, region stepping up and changing. And Eli was saying how this is like outside the governmental structure and finding those, you know, partners and individuals who are willing to kind of link arms and across different. So that's, I mean, that sounds great and amazing. And also I'm curious, like what, are the moments or how do we ensure that the great
the movement that you're creating on the ground, then is also adopted by, know, well, maybe in the first step, not blocked by government, and then hopefully adopted by government and proliferated, because you're going to need that in order to make these, you know, make the change last stick and part of the system.
Eli Bar-On (23:57)
Yeah. So, ⁓ the group has people with very different backgrounds, very diverse backgrounds. So some of them are former ministers, some of them are journalists, some of them are diplomats, business people, civil society activists, scientists, academics, all sorts of people. Many of them are very well connected with their governments.
I would also not shock you if I tell you that in many of these countries they cannot join such a group before they go and ask their government if it's okay to do that. So this is a civil society effort, but it's not detached.
from governments in the region. Many governments know about what we're doing and are very happy with what we're doing because we're not doing anything that could be risky for them politically. We're dealing with areas that are crucial for the development of each and every country in the region. We're not discussing internal political issues. We are very, very careful not to step out of the framework of what we discussed.
So I think what's ⁓ unique about that is that on one hand, it allows you to bring together many people from across the region to discuss all these areas within the organization. And then you could have side talks in which you talk about many other things. And sometimes they will come and say, here's something that is currently discussed in my country. What do you think about that? Can you reflect about that? Can we do something like that?
and they will go back home and discuss it. So it's a hybrid approach. And this is why I said it could also be very beneficial if you want to solve conflicts in the region in the future, because it creates countless, countless, countless circles of people knowing each other from many different backgrounds. And it is very useful to have them in a moment of crisis. The theory of change says,
that when you have all these efforts operating regularly, 365 days a year on many different levels, on many different issues, eventually you can create a movement in the region that allows people to think beyond the current ⁓ political stalemates and imagine something else and be active in pushing for...
This is something else for a better future, for a more stable future, for a more prosperous future.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (26:36)
So I have a question in my this is it's coming as it relates to a conversation I had earlier this week with a friend and I'm trying to word it very carefully There are those
Okay, I'm gonna this statement differently. trying to be, ⁓ I want to get, I want to listen to the right kind of, you know, the right in terms of, I don't want to say something that will get the wrong emotion here, but here's, what I'm trying to say. The region is very different obviously than where I live, right? Israel, the Middle East, men of that area, it's not, it's not Europe, it's not America. It's different. And something that, you know, the both of you said kind of early in the beginning about like a shared experience.
that is very rooted in the region. It's something that I totally, you I personally admire. You know, I can identify with it. I can empathize with it, but on a very personal level, it's not something that I feel at the same level, right? Obviously, you know, for all the obvious reasons. And to me, it makes a lot of sense, right? Like that is clearly, I feel like that is an underutilized, there are some underutilized avenues for building understanding and cooperation. One of them is,
kind of a shared cultural language, I'd say, in the region. And it feels like sometimes, you know, ⁓ other approaches were kind of ⁓ implanted or tried to take root in the area. And what we're seeing, and people are using this to criticize Israel, is that Israel is ⁓ becoming more and more of the region. Now, I don't see that as a critique necessarily. I see it just as an observation and a natural, you know, natural... ⁓
and even welcome, I'd say, development, that Israel doesn't feel like it's some external abomination, but actually like a very natural part of the mosaic of the region. And at the same time, if I'm looking at some of the areas that MENA2050 focuses on, from an agenda perspective, I'd say, it feels like ⁓ it might not be of the region, right? Like, I don't know, I'll use climate change as an example, right? I think climate change, we can...
I mean, here in America, it's become highly politicized and other places as well. But I don't know if it's something, I don't know, and this is out of ignorance, admittedly. Is this something that's on top of mind for everybody equally across the world, or is it a kind of ⁓ a Western kind of outlook at certain things? And so how do we, so like, that's how I see it. Admittedly, again, out of lack of knowledge and education in this field, I'm not from international development. That's not my background.
So A, I'm happy to be correct in saying, this is kind of a global people across the board understand no matter where they are, this is something we have to focus on. And that's great, amazing. And if it isn't, it should be maybe, but how do we kind of like, okay, there's like a cultural kind of nuance and ⁓ ethos to a region. And then what the topics we're talking about feel sometimes, or at least from an outsider's perspective, again, admittedly out of ignorance.
and it might not feel so natural. I'm trying to understand like how does that work and how do we pick and how do we choose to focus on those things?
Eli Bar-On (29:57)
Wydiane, do you want to go first?
Wydiane Djaidi (30:00)
Yeah, I mean, I could maybe just give a short answer first about Morocco on what you said. ⁓ So climate change, just on the last thing, last point, climate change is really, think a lot of everyone is aware it's not a Western thing. It's really, for example, now here we have a big issue, unfortunately, that is constantly growing and it's a water issue. And there are...
some regions in the country where there are water problems and even in cities there has to be water cuts at certain times. So society is completely aware even in the most remote areas, people are aware of this and they know that it comes from climate change. it's not a Western issue. mean, it's not more that Westerners are aware of that. I think people in the region are really
aware and especially that it's not just something that we are talking about but it's something that we are dealing with ⁓ in reality so yeah but I will let Eli something
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (31:07)
So let me put a finer point
in that for a second for the sake of clarity because I'm realizing, I'm thinking back what I said and I may have sounded like a total idiot. So let me clarify that for a second what I meant. Here often the conversation and you can see even at the president's level, it's about like plastic straws, right? That's kind of the application and a very superficial popular cultural level, right? It's like what you're gonna consume and how many bags in the supermarket, like that's kind of where it boils down to. Obviously in regions where there's
water droughts, food insecurity, many of those issues, it's actually, you know, it's a much deeper kind of perspective. So maybe even as it's just a matter of terminology of what we're calling, you know, we're kind of, you know, we're equating everything, all of it. I mean, maybe it's all connected, obviously, but like that it feels like there's something missing there. even that clarification was helpful for me to kind of, you recalibrate the question. But I think on a deeper level,
You know, some of it still, I would say, you know, just to push a little bit further on this, right? It's like, you know, another issue that know, we do on you're very much committed to, right? We're talking about gender equality and roles of women. Israel amongst, I'm not right, is going in one direction from a religious perspective, right? And that feel, and it could be incongruent with like the local culture and like saying like, this is actually an external practice norm that you're trying to foist on us. And it's not part of who we are.
Right? maybe that's a, maybe even a slightly more pointy or thorny example. ⁓ But to kind of explore how these, how, how, how the region and its cultural kind of underpinnings and traditions allow on the one hand for a lot of collaboration. And on the other hand, how do we kind of bridge with these other concepts that are bringing brought in.
Eli Bar-On (32:55)
Wydiane, do you want to complete like—
Wydiane Djaidi (32:55)
Yeah,
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (32:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wydiane Djaidi (32:57)
maybe I can just then complete very briefly. So I think that I see, I understand better your point now. think it's also the role, civil society plays a big role here to also bring awareness when sometimes people are not very aware about certain things or how do we deal with it. You mentioned plastic for example, plastic use for example.
⁓ And I lived in ⁓ Austria, Vienna, which is always ranked as the top three cities in the world with the best living conditions, including respect to the environment. I lived there for three years. So I really seen different countries. I lived in Italy before that. So of course, I think it's very important. You see the difference in.
depending on where you go in the world and that some people are more or less aware ⁓ about ⁓ issues and for instance here we're speaking about climate change but I think one society civil society plays a big role ⁓ in bringing awareness and contributing of course there should be also an effort ⁓ from governments and here in Morocco there is a lot that is being done to also play to raise awareness in
public awareness about these issues. Of course, there are also policy changes that happen for the better. And civil society, think, has to play a big role and that's where our role is important as civil society to also bring something. We come from different backgrounds and we lived in different places and you have here people...
through the network that have brilliant backgrounds and I think that's what's great about this and I think it's great to help raising awareness and to change things and I will let you continue.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (34:58)
Yeah.
Not really.
Eli Bar-On (35:01)
Yeah, I'll say this. First you asked, well, how did you decide that these are the issues we should deal with? And it's very interesting. We had a very interesting ⁓ exercise, a workshop we held three years ago in Jordan in which we brought, I think, more than 20 members of the group from a representation of almost every country in the region. And we were discussing with them what are the issues we should prioritize? What are the most burning issues of the
of the region and they came up with all these issues. Okay, so if you leave, I don't know, one of our members in Kuwait every summer, he's been telling me, you know, it gets, we have 58 degrees Celsius. I don't even know what it is in Fahrenheit, a hundred and I don't know. Every summer we have those days, 58 degrees. I mean, it's unbearable, unbearable.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (35:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Eli Bar-On (35:54)
Okay, so what happens if we don't deal with that? If you live in Iraq, Iraq already has, I think, 250 days a year of sandstorms. If we do nothing, it's gonna be 300 days a year by 2050. Okay, how do you raise kids in those areas? I mean, people will just leave those places and we will lose civilizations that have been there for millennia.
You know, will life will be like all these people, all these places will be uninhabitable and life will be unbearable. So this is just an example. How far do we take it? Are we dealing now with the straws and the plastic bags, et cetera? I mean, you have the, you know, the Maslow pyramid of needs. When I think it's good when you have a society that's already dealing with those issues.
It means like it's in a good place where they can discuss issues on a high level ⁓ of the need. I think we're not there quite yet. I mean, in Israel, maybe yes, but not in the entire region. But this is how we came about with all these different issues. And there many different issues we thought could be a good basis for regional cooperation and are crucial for the future of the region.
Now before that you asked about Israel's place in the region and whether Israel is becoming more like the region or not. Well, I would say first, I personally want Israel to be part of this region. I don't think Israel should be perceived as a Western extension in the region. There used to be, ⁓ like a few decades ago, like when after Israel, the state of Israel was established, it was perceived by the Arab
was saying in Arabic ⁓ that Israel was a... It means like a Western dagger in an Arab heart. That's not good for Israel. Israel is located in a perfect strategic location. ⁓ We have borders with four countries plus the Palestinians and we operate as an island state. The only way to go out of Israel, usually you go, take your car, you drive to the...
airport and you take a flight. ⁓ And it makes no sense. This could be the ultimate bridge state. Not only in terms of the geography, but also in terms of culture. I always say you have a representation in Israel of people coming from across the Arab and Muslim world.
more than you do in most Arab countries. We have people here coming from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, like the entire region. So why do we need to be perceived as a European ⁓ enclave in this part of the world? It's very important that Israelis will become part of the region. We'd be perceived as legitimate partners in the region who's
been living here for centuries. Israel, of course, has been the homeland of the Jewish people for millennia, and that should also be part of the conversation. And at the same time, as an Israeli, I want my country to have its unique character, a democratic system. I want people in this country to be respectful to each other, to be tolerant, to be respectful of the neighbors, to dignify
their neighbors. I don't see any contradiction between all of that. Like this is, yes, Israel is the ⁓ historic homeland of the Jewish people. And we have Palestinians living in and also in the Holy Land, and we should respect them. We should ⁓ allow them to enjoy dignified life. We should find ways to solve the conflict to them and live together. I don't see any contradiction. And I think this is widely accepted ⁓ across the region.
I think it was, ⁓ well, let's talk about the moment of crisis, October 7. I don't think October 7, the attack on October 7, it was not only an attack on Israel. Okay, it was an attack on ⁓ a big camp of people in the region, moderate, pragmatic, realistic people, who wanted to lead this region in a different direction.
take it to the next level, create, bring it back to the center that it used to be, a center of science, center of development, center of coexistence. It was ⁓ very clear that Hamas also tried to stop the talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
⁓ So we could see there are two efforts here, two competing efforts in the region, an effort of extremism, of radicalism, and you have people from across the region involved in that, not accepting the others, etc. Not every camp has those people, every country has those people, and you have people who want to say, see a better future for their children here. ⁓
So in many ways we're trying to give a home for all these people. People who are looking for an alternative, a safe space for them to engage with each other and feel that they have people on the other side of the border they can build a different reality with.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (41:28)
Right. Thank you. I, ⁓ this is why I have, ⁓ have these guests, these podcasts. I get to learn a lot about this stuff. think the way you frame that is really actually what I was trying to get to the heart of, right? Like is, is, and again, like I'm not, this is not a project, not a projection of course, of what I personally want, believe, wish or whatever. I'm just saying like, this is a concept, you know, a, ⁓ a, understanding in the conversations, right? If it's on the Iranian side and I want to, this is just an expansion. We'll come back to this, to our conversation, but
the connection between America and Israel, right? And then like this perception of being a Western outpost. And on the other hand, like, no, we are of the region. And really what you said beautifully, both of you in this kind of, it should be a, can and should be a much natural cultural bridge, right? It isn't a, know, the question I was trying to get at, and you guys answered it in many ways was, you know, it sounds like there's a both at the same time in understanding that it should be a much, it continued maybe originally as it was.
part of the natural mosaic of the area, and without being viewed as an imposition of a Western way of life necessarily. And Eli said, yeah, it bubbled up from the ground. We might be using terms that are used in all kinds of contexts, but fundamentally, we're talking about problems that we deal with. Some might be easier to identify, some might be harder to identify, but this idea of actually
using it and creating these bridges are important. So that was super helpful and thank you for answering the question, even though I didn't ask it correctly. In terms of, you know, this moment of crisis we're in now, it's been ⁓ two years, I'm not good in math, hence my professional choice in Robinix, ⁓ but it's been, you know, we're in this moment of crisis and I can't, I'm curious to hear if there were moments within the organization, I mean, you predate October 7th in your work, you're able to build...
relationships, what is it like working ⁓ in this moment where there is potentially a heightened ⁓ sense of hostility, maybe not within the group, but of course, obviously in the region.
Eli Bar-On (43:37)
Again, do you wanna address it first?
Wydiane Djaidi (43:40)
Yeah, sure, I can answer from my perspective. Dialogue. Yeah, so from my perspective, being a member of MENA2050, so of course there is this conflict and we all hope that it will end soon and...
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (43:41)
You guys are so polite. I'm sorry. Just like no other, no other episodes. Like, do you want to, do you want to go? It's like they, so it's very nice. So you see regional cooperation already in the podcast. It's wonderful.
Wydiane Djaidi (44:09)
that the humanitarian costs will stop and war is not a benefit for anyone. And hopefully as a member of MENA2050, really want peace and hope for peace for everyone. And I really hope ⁓ that there will be respect ⁓ and peace and stopping really the humanitarian.
costs that have been occurring since ⁓ almost two years now. ⁓ But from a MENA2050 perspective, really this has not stopped us from collaborating together. And even I would say that it made us even want to do more together to show that I think the desire ⁓ of showing unity has even grown.
And I will speak from ⁓ the perspective of the gender working group that we have created several months earlier this year. So we have a core group of the gender working group. So the gender working group also maybe just to give a small ⁓ description of it before to dig into this. So basically it's a working group that we created ⁓ as part of MENA2050.
The aim is really to promote gender equality across the region through MENA2050 and also to mainstream gender in MENA2050 work. So through the different works that we are doing either on climate or any other field. So, and to give an example, so to answer to what you said. So we have this core group of six women, core group plus the two co-chairs. And basically there are, so we are,
⁓ So you have two Israelis, two Palestinians, two Moroccans and one Iranian. So to show you that really it's diverse in a beautiful way and it didn't stop us from working together, from wanting ⁓ to bring gender equality in the region together. ⁓ It rather even made us closer and we've been working, maybe I can talk about this later on.
more in more details about the working group. But yeah, this is just an example now to answer to your question and how it impacted our work and our collaboration for MENA2050. So I would say that I think all the people that initially joined this network want peace in the region, they want everyone to be respected. so conflicts like that and
any other issues, I mean, we don't know what the future is about and there may be other conflicts, etc. But as long as there is this willingness from people to work together and to collaborate and to do things together, I don't think wars or any other issues will tear us apart but rather even make us closer. And I think that's the beauty of it. And I hope this will help solve many things in the future.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (47:27)
early.
Eli Bar-On (47:28)
Yeah, I'll say, well, if I go back to specifically to that day, October 7, well, of course, ⁓ for me as an Israeli, it was a devastating day. And I think it's been almost two years now that's been the saddest thing in my life and in the life of every Israeli. We all lost people we know there. My daughter lost friends. I lost a friend.
friends lost their children, their parents, and we still have all the hostages, young people who were kidnapped to Gaza, etc. But at same time, I think it will be fair to say that this period of the last two years has been devastating also for Palestinians, not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank.
So it's been a horrible time for all people in the Holy Land. And it's important to acknowledge that in MENA2050, as I said, we don't deal with conflict resolution, but shortly after October 7, well, immediately after October 7, I reached out to all the other members and specifically to the Palestinians to ask them how they were doing because there was a lot of tension.
whether they are well, their families, etc. And it was very important because it gave all of us the feeling that on a personal level nothing has changed. We all respect each other, we're still friends, we still have... And they asked me, so what do we do now? I said, I don't know, we were never established to handle these situations. We were established to do something else, to create an alternative. And I think we just keep doing what we were meant to do.
And it resonated with all people, it made sense to them. They said, okay. But we did hold a meeting in which some Israelis and some Palestinians spoke about their emotions, about how they feel, about what they're worried about. It was very early after, very shortly after October 7. And then we held some in-person gatherings in which we brought Israelis and Palestinians, but people also from across the region to discuss various scenarios of how we can...
move forward after the war, etc. So it was very, very meaningful. It created a sense of belonging and a sense of women business were trying to look into alternatives. That was very ⁓ meaningful. I think it's important to keep in mind in those in these moments. I'm seeing it now because people were so hurt on October 7 because they felt so exposed. ⁓
on the Israeli side because so many peace activists were murdered on October 7. In many ways, this attack also was an attack on the peace camp, OK, and on peace process and the belief that peace is possible, et cetera. And it made people and the reactions people saw made them feel, OK, we don't have any any partners. We have nothing to speak about. would be no
peaceful resolution and when you talk about the pain on the other side sometimes people will tell you you know I'm so overwhelmed my heart is filled with the pain on my side now and to me it doesn't make sense you know like human pain is human pain and I think my heart is big enough for everyone's pain and I can acknowledge somebody else's pain if it's there if see it
And it doesn't take much just to empathize and speak about it openly, reach out and say I'm sorry for your pain. And still I could be very, you know, could be very hawkish. I spent many years in the military. For me, life is quite simple. You know, you come to me with a weapon, I kill you. You come with a flower, I hug you. You know, it doesn't go against that. Yes, we have an enemy there we have to deal with, but at the same time there are people
we will have to live next to and when it's all over it's very important that they will remember that we care about them that they will show that they care about us and also on regional level I'm seeing it in many there's a war in Sudan you know how many talks I had with people are members from Sudan to discuss the war how many people we have from Iraq that remember the horrible endless war in Iraq okay and the ISIS were operating there we have people from Syria telling me about
war so so many people are you know are so tired from these conflicts and I think the well you can't say good but something positive that can come out of this is that wars generate energy for peace and usually we don't speak about peace in MENA2050 like we speak about prosperity we speak about stability we speak about hope
Because there is a peace fatigue people don't want you to speak with them about peace But prosperity and stability and hope are the building blocks of peace Okay, when you have all of these you have peace I think it's very important never never never to forget that this is the the end goal That even if you tried many times and failed you are never absolved of trying to get there In Hebrew we say like for peace and
chase it, you're trying to get it, always. This is your mission in life, you always want to get there and I think eventually most people this is what they want, they want to live in a peaceful surrounding and they want to work to make it
Wydiane Djaidi (53:36)
And if I may add something about this, think that the negative reaction I would say that happened since October 7th is that many, I think many people across the region or even around the world felt that they had to pick a side, but I don't think you have to pick a side. I personally don't, not, I felt heartbroken about what happened on October 7th. And I also felt
feel heartbroken about ⁓ seeing civilians dying ⁓ in Gaza as much as I felt heartbroken seeing what happened in Israel on October 7th. And I want peace for both. I don't, it's about human respect and human dignity and that everyone deserves peace and to live peacefully and you don't have to pick a side. And unfortunately, I think many people felt that they had to and this also can create ⁓ other
other negative ⁓ impacts and it's like a whole spiral I would say that can lead then to maybe enhancing these feelings of like conflict and it's either me or you, existentialism and so on. But I think that if you just think you know as a normal human being that ⁓ respects
the other one, despite anything. I mean, we should just respect each other and want peace for each other. And there is no side. think our side, all of us, is just humanity and respecting each other and that everyone lives in peace, both Israelis and Palestinians and everyone else around the world.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (55:22)
So, mean, that to me is very inspiring and gives a lot of hope. I, you know, we're getting near time for this episode. So I do want to ask because, you I'll use myself as fodder for this question, right? I grew up in a, primarily during ⁓ the second Intifada. And, you know, I served the Israeli.
path and maybe Eli can also identify with some of these of like, know, ⁓ I picked up on it a little bit, maybe not intentionally, but when he said we have to remind Palestinians that we want peace and they have to show us that they want peace, right? And that's it wasn't the same. It's not the same different words used also for, and I'm curious again, I mean, like for me, it's like, it's great. Like I am a huge believer in building coalitions and working across differences and figuring out how we can do things together.
And I mean, it's in deepest level. also I'm curious, like, are there examples for our listeners as well, for me, just even just so I can feel better today of like actual movement on the ground where you can point to saying we are seeing, yes, there's the Abraham Accords, amazing, but also on the grassroots level and the coalition, like in your working groups, are you, you know, seeing objectives that you've set out to achieve and like real incremental but meaningful, you know, change?
And so aside from the incredibly important inspiration that we can get from this, from the conversation, from the discourse, from the context, from having this framework of hundreds of people, of a very robust list and network of people from across the region, what is happening that we can point and saying, is where we're on the path? There's a lot of, I'll say this, PG still, a lot of stuff going on.
but there's also a positive movement aside on the geopolitical top level, but really on the ground.
Eli Bar-On (57:22)
Yeah, so I'll give an example. So just one and a half months ago, we gathered 40 individuals, members of the group, ⁓ in a beautiful castle outside of Paris to discuss food security and water scarcity in the MENA region, Middle East North Africa region. And we brought former ministers, we brought scientists, we brought business people, people who deal with that from different
many different aspects. And we were discussing best practices for water treatment, desalination, how Morocco deals with solar energy, all sorts of ideas that are very, very pragmatic, have a very clear ⁓ bottom line for people in the region. And now we're following up on, it was just beautiful, we had a ⁓ nice retreat.
three days, people were ⁓ spending time with each other discussing all these ideas professionally. had like they would go into working groups to discuss them, come back to the plenary, ⁓ present it to the others, etc. It was a very, very deep dialogue that we had on all these issues. And they had every chance to engage with each other during the ⁓
the meals we had together, they were singing with each other in the evening, they were playing the piano with each other. It was very, very meaningful. They were singing, they were explaining the songs to each other, songs in Arabic, songs in Hebrew, even in Yiddish we had there. So it was very important. And now we're following up on all the great ideas that came out of there. We're trying to see how we can put in motion all these ideas.
So it will not be just great ideas, but also be translated into great projects. Or we have a regional vision team. The regional vision team comes up with all sorts of great ideas. And the first paper they wrote was about how can we ⁓ emulate the European model and create an economic union in the Middle East and North Africa region. And now we're holding a conference about it in Brussels later this year, bringing economists, politicians.
people from across the region and Europe to discuss this. So in many ways, it's, ⁓ I would say, a place where great ideas are born and then being looked into by others and then advocated for. This is the way we see our ability to change things in the region. It's very, very pragmatic.
Wydiane Djaidi (1:00:12)
if I may add on the gender also, so we're currently ⁓ discussing with some other partners, for instance, one with another NGO, a partnership for the organization of an event for the 40 approximately women that are members of the MENA2050 network and part of the gender working group. ⁓
it would be in partnership with another NGO and we were having talks last week with them to see the potential areas. So we thought for instance that maybe on collective trauma healing as a way to foster tolerance and peace across the region. So it would be gathering these 40 women.
to on this topic for a couple of days. So this might happen in the coming months after summer probably. So this in one hand, we're also ⁓ currently on talks with another NGO organization that is in the US actually on doing a potential collaboration on for a social media campaign. They are also ⁓ focused on gender in the media sector. we.
are working now together to do together a social media campaign. They're also doing a lot of things on interfaith dialogue in MENA and more broadly internationally in the US as well. So we might do this with them. So there are things that are currently being prepared and I think that there are great things coming in the future through MENA2050.
I'm also now working with Eli on the preparation of the arts and culture committee and sports as well ⁓ in MENA2050. So that's something that really I have at the core of my personal mission because I really believe that ⁓ arts and culture and sports can be really used as great ways to foster interfaith and tolerance across the region.
So we're preparing now the launch of this committee and it will be really to organize, for instance, artistic residences with artists from the whole region. always as a, I mean, the interfaith and intercultural aspect will always be at the core of these artistic and cultural residences. So...
So yeah, there are great things coming and we're working on it and I think we have a great motivation to do great things in our region and that's really what drives us and what makes us going and I'm sure there is a bright future ahead.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:03:09)
Thank you, Eli. Thank you, Wydiane, for giving us this pause of fresh air, of hope, of inspiration in a moment, in a long, long moment of crisis in the region for our peoples. So really thank you for joining us ⁓ for this episode of the Z3 Podcast. I truly appreciate you for giving your time and for all the work that you do, because it's truly, truly necessary. And, ⁓ you know, I wish you, we wish you all success because...
It's the only path forward. So thank you. Thank you.
Eli Bar-On (1:03:43)
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure being here. And I think it's very important that people will know that there is hope. And it's more important that when this hope is connected to a plan. I always say in Arabic, it's like an inshallah with a plan. So this is very important to know that many people like us are working to bring hope and to make a change in reality. And we want to thank you for giving us the space to talk about it.
Wydiane Djaidi (1:03:43)
so much for having us.
Rabbi Amitai Fraiman (1:03:58)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Eli Bar-On (1:04:13)
Thank you so much.
Wydiane Djaidi (1:04:14)
Thank you so
much. Thank you. And it was really an honor for me to be here with you as well. So thank you.
